advice for discussing some thoughts with a guitar player

[marcador]

Well...

O P , W H A T D O Y O U R E A L L Y W A N T ? !

In the end, it WILL boil down to you, OP getting clear about: 1. what you want from your making music, and 2. whether you will find common ground with your colleagues on your answer to 1...

Why these 2 questions? That has actually been answered by the others, but nonetheless, I'll make it very clear again (as it sometimes can be really hard to decide what one themselves want from a given situation):

1. I agree with @aprod (#16) & @pepj (#18): From your description, OP, I'll admit I don't get any clear picture about a comonly shared AMBITION in your "group":

What I understand is that, y'all don't gig, you just hang, jam & record. Correct?
Now, in such a constellation, if I were this guitar player, I'd ASK YOU, OP:
- WHY ON EARTH should I invest ANYTHING - WHAT BENEFIT would there be if I DID?!

To me, all this resembles a true standard situation, which I also repeatedly experienced when I was young, especially when making music with friends. The simple but painful truth is this:

Y'all didn't do your homework. You didn't discuss y'alls ambition and the goals of your little congregation. Being friends with someone does NOT AT ALL mean that we have the same idea of a band's "raison d'etre"! And now, this negligence is coming to haunt you. For some (well, at least one) of you, everything's peaches & cream - after all, there's no long-term goal anyway!
And then, there's you And honestly, OP: Your comments are quite confusing to me...

Reading post #1 again: In the 1st half, you write how great everything is: It's "...a good hang and great jam situation. its close to home, dedicated space in the drummers garage and we play music I enjoy...".

Is THIS really the TRUTH, OP?! Or is the truth rather: You want to "...get to the next level..." (and what would that be, anyhow?), which is hampered by that guitar guy's unwillingness to invest in (work for) YOUR GOAL, OP?

Can you honestly say what your mates think about "getting to the next level", how they would interpret YOUR term "next level"?
Can you say how YOU define "next level" - do you mean getting gigs, or....?

For me, the situation as you describe would be clear. Then again, I learned how important it is to BE CLEAR IN MY COMMUNICATIONS, even before the 1st session. And in my book, this is not "rough", or "harsh" - quite the contrary, actually: Clear communication is a sign of respect! Fact is, if we're not all on the same page, we'd better not start wasting our energy (which would be much better spent looking for like-minded friends/colleagues)!
Now, maybe you have one other possible solution at hand, which is also what I did in the past: I kept playing with my "forever practicing"-friends, while at the same time, I founded my own band - with colleagues who share my ambition.
Of course, my priority is on the latter. And no one can be mad at me for this, because everybody involved knew this from day one...

 

[feterpatch]

Your guitar player is missing a key skill for playing in an ensemble. He needs to learn to listen to the other players, especially in a jam band environment.

Volume control is not his only issue...

 

[Standalone]

SO have been playing with a group of guys for about a year now. We all get along (some of us were friends outside of this before) and it sa good hang and great jam situation. its close to home, dedicated space in the drummers garage and we play music I enjoy. We could easily gig (we sound pretty good) but no one really has a desire much for gigging. More so a weekly jam hang to play and enjoy ourselves. We also record everything via multi track so its something cool to listen to, and use as a tool to improve my playing.
My main problem is our lead guitar player. Despite our best efforts hes always at 11 by the end of the night. He also seems to get lost in his own jam/solos/ideas and loses direction from the rest of the band at times. As we go from song to song he often misses cues because hes so wrapped up in his own playing. He's a friend and I dont want to make it personal, but I think we could get to the next level if we were to listen better to each other (we playly mostly jam band/ jam based music). How Do I bring this up with him without making a rift?

I have learned a “consent-based” approach to communication is super helpful.

Finding a preamble that is natural and respectful can smooth things out. “Hey I want to talk music and dynamics and stuff but I want to make sure first that you’re cool with me sharing my thoughts. I dig your playing and I also like to talk about this kind of thing like I do on the forums…”

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I have learned a “consent-based” approach to communication is super helpful.

Finding a preamble that is natural and respectful can smooth things out. “Hey I want to talk music and dynamics and stuff but I want to make sure first that you’re cool with me sharing my thoughts. I dig your playing and I also like to talk about this kind of thing like I do on the forums…”

That sounds nice, but I don't see why you need someone's permission to share your thoughts. If it's bothering you, you have a right to say so, whether they want to hear it or not. Of course, this is accompanied by a corresponding obligation on your part to communicate in the least jerky way you can. But you don't need permission.

 

[Pocket Dave]

That sounds nice, but I don't see why you need someone's permission to share your thoughts. If it's bothering you, you have a right to say so, whether they want to hear it or not. Of course, this is accompanied by a corresponding obligation on your part to communicate in the least jerky way you can. But you don't need permission.

Jumping in here - you don't NEED permission, but getting a buy-in, even a subtle one, can be be a powerful psychological tool.

Ever wonder why the Arthur Jensen "You have meddled with the primal forces of nature" speech in the film, Network, was so powerful? As he walked Howard Beale into the conference room, Jensen told him, "They say I can sell anything - I'd like to try to sell something to you".

Jensen was soliciting Beale's tacit consent to share what came next - the famous speech that won Ned Beatty a best-supporting Academy Award for what was less than 7 minutes on-screen time.

It's not a strange or new concept since the beginning of sales. Getting a prospect to say "yes", even tacitly, establishes a positive pattern in the process, while letting them take ownership of its direction and ultimate positive outcome.

Sure, you can stick to your guns and decide you shouldn't need to do this - in reality, "should" or "shouldn't" is ego-driven, and has nothing to do with guiding a positive outcome.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Jumping in here - you don't NEED permission, but getting a buy-in, even a subtle one, can be be a powerful psychological tool.

Ever wonder why the Arthur Jensen "You have meddled with the primal forces of nature" speech in the film, Network, was so powerful? As he walked Howard Beale into the conference room, Jensen told him, "They say I can sell anything - I'd like to try to sell something to you".

Jensen was soliciting Beale's tacit consent to share what came next - the famous speech that won Ned Beatty a best-supporting Academy Award for what was less than 7 minutes on-screen time.

It's not a strange or new concept since the beginning of sales. Getting a prospect to say "yes", even tacitly, establishes a positive pattern in the process, while letting them take ownership of its direction and ultimate positive outcome.

Sure, you can stick to your guns and decide you shouldn't need to do this - in reality, "should" or "shouldn't" is ego-driven, and has nothing to do with guiding a positive outcome.

Never saw Network, so I'm at sea there.

As for the rest, different strokes, etc. Personally, I've never found pussyfooting around an issue to be that helpful. It can allow the other person to think the issue is less important than you believe it to be. That may be a positive outcome for them, but not necessarily for others.

My personal experience has been that you can generally (admittedly not always) get to a workable outcome with clear and thoughtful and considerate communication without asking the recipient's permission or tiptoeing around things. Asking permission gives the other person the option to refuse it. I don't view it as a matter of salesmanship but as one of problem-solving. I'm not trying to sell something, I'm trying to work out an issue. You can think of it as ego-driven if you like--though I actually never said "should" anything--but to me it's more a matter of a group of people holding each other to a certain baseline level of maturity and responsibility.

But there are of course a number of ways to go about this, and whatever works, works.

 

[pepj]

If I'm working with someone, I want to know pretty quickly about how it will all work. Not their way, not my way..more where do we meet in the middle.
This is why dictatorial BL's never work, IMO

 

[Pocket Dave]

Never saw Network, so I'm at sea there.

As for the rest, different strokes, etc. Personally, I've never found pussyfooting around an issue to be that helpful. It can allow the other person to think the issue is less important than you believe it to be. That may be a positive outcome for them, but not necessarily for others.

My personal experience has been that you can generally (admittedly not always) get to a workable outcome with clear and thoughtful and considerate communication without asking the recipient's permission or tiptoeing around things. Asking permission gives the other person the option to refuse it. I don't view it as a matter of salesmanship but as one of problem-solving. I'm not trying to sell something, I'm trying to work out an issue. You can think of it as ego-driven if you like--though I actually never said "should" anything--but to me it's more a matter of a group of people holding each other to a certain baseline level of maturity and responsibility.

But there are of course a number of ways to go about this, and whatever works, works.

I won't argue with your personal experience, but you never saw Network?

Dude.

It's only the most prescient, enduring and influential satire film of the 20th century, leading a list that includes Dr. Strangelove, A Face in The Crowd and Being There.

Make it a NY resolution to see.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I won't argue with your personal experience, but you never saw Network?

Dude.

It's only the most prescient, enduring and influential satire film of the 20th century, leading a list that includes Dr. Strangelove, A Face in The Crowd and Being There.

Make it a NY resolution to see.

Yeah, I know, I know ... it's one of those inexplicable holes in my cinematic education. FWIW, I've also never seen Titanic. I have seen the others you mention, though.

 

[BassGuyFL]

Yeah, I know, I know ... it's one of those inexplicable holes in my cinematic education. FWIW, I've also never seen Titanic. I have seen the others you mention, though.

I’ll save you 3 hours of your life. The boat sinks. I was on a 20 year boycott of Titanic until my former significant other got to me.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I’ll save you 3 hours of your life. The boat sinks. I was on a 20 year boycott of Titanic until my former significant other got to me.

What, no spoiler alert?!

 

[Michedelic]

I’ll save you 3 hours of your life. The boat sinks. I was on a 20 year boycott of Titanic until my former significant other got to me.

Yes, the iceberg did it.

 

[Pep]

SO have been playing with a group of guys for about a year now. We all get along (some of us were friends outside of this before) and it sa good hang and great jam situation. its close to home, dedicated space in the drummers garage and we play music I enjoy. We could easily gig (we sound pretty good) but no one really has a desire much for gigging. More so a weekly jam hang to play and enjoy ourselves. We also record everything via multi track so its something cool to listen to, and use as a tool to improve my playing.
My main problem is our lead guitar player. Despite our best efforts hes always at 11 by the end of the night. He also seems to get lost in his own jam/solos/ideas and loses direction from the rest of the band at times. As we go from song to song he often misses cues because hes so wrapped up in his own playing. He's a friend and I dont want to make it personal, but I think we could get to the next level if we were to listen better to each other (we playly mostly jam band/ jam based music). How Do I bring this up with him without making a rift?

I didn’t know there was a “next level” in a private jam amongst friends who don’t care to play out. I say keep doing what you’re doing and remain friends.

Also if he gets lost occasionally it’s probably because he’s too loud and can’t hear anyone else.

 

[Pep]

I want to just get better as a musician and a band.

You’re not a band. Bands don’t just jam, they play gigs.

 

[BassicJazzy]

Yes, the iceberg did it.

What are you, a personal injury lawyer? The idiot captain ran the ship into the iceberg, not the other way around. Poor iceberg was just sitting there, minding its own business. Next thing it knew, wham! A hit and run.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

You’re not a band. Bands don’t just jam, they play gigs

Perhaps so. But OP is a musician, and has stated that he wants to get better as a musician (presumably along with the other musicians). I think that's probably the "next level" you were wondering about. Why should he shut that down if that's his goal?

 

[Pep]

What are you, a personal injury lawyer? The idiot captain ran the ship into the iceberg, not the other way around. Poor iceberg was just sitting there, minding its own business. Next thing it knew, wham! A hit and run.

 

[Pep]

Perhaps so. But OP is a musician, and has stated that he wants to get better as a musician (presumably along with the other musicians). I think that's probably the "next level" you were wondering about. Why should he shut that down if that's his goal?

I was just bringing up the fact that they are not a band. If the OP is expecting more he needs to share that, not only with the guitarist, but everyone. That will tell him who’s on the same page. If not perhaps it’s time for him to move on.

Another thing: If they’re not fighting, they’re not a band!

Also if they’re recording everything isn’t the guitar player’s louder volume (and getting lost) in the recordings? If so that’s how you bring it up. Seems simple enough.

Does the guitarist play with the amp on the floor blowing at his ankles? This is so common amongst many musicians. If that’s what he’s doing, get it up where it’s blasting at him and see if it corrects the problem. Aim it up at him and away from everyone else.

 

[gln1955]

Yes, the iceberg did it.

And there was room on that door for two people. Don't let anyone tell you different.

 

[Pocket Dave]

Another thing: If they’re not fighting, they’re not a band!

Yeah, that's what I used to think - I got tired of it so I chose to skip all the BS and started hiring out straight-to-the-gig as a sideman & sub. And yeah, I've not considered myself "in a band" under the circumstances.

Then the strangest thing happened a little over three years ago - a BL I subbed for a few times offered me the gig when his regular guy quit. What's been strange ever since is, while we gig somewhere almost every Fri & Sat, we all just suit up, show up, do our little performance, get paid and go home. No complaining, no fist-fights, no drama, IK - weird, right?

(or maybe we've all just gotten too old for such nonsense)