advice for discussing some thoughts with a guitar player

[MCS4]

I'm with the group that thinks this is probably not a priority issue if the band has no plans to do anything but jam together.

If you really do want the band to improve/evolve, my recommendation would be to see if there is some type of bigger goal you can convince everyone to work toward. Maybe you want to float the idea of playing one or two gigs far out in the future, or do a small recording session and/or record a more high quality demo for limited circulation. Basically anything that gives some goal that doesn't push everyone too far but gives some excuse for things to tighten up. Part of the appeal of this is you can try to pitch the idea of everyone coming together a little more seriously without having to single out the lead guitarist as much. However, this obviously only works if everyone is on board; if people just want to jam and have fun the way things are, that's probably what they will do, including the lead guitarist.

 

[brianrost]

Since you have recordings, just ask him questions like “Hey, what’s going on in that third verse” or “Do you think we should leave more space for the vocals on the chorus?”, etc. or better yet, ask all the players those same questions while he’s there and see what they think.

 

[gln1955]

its not that I want to gig, but I want to evolve as a band. Its hard to do that when not everyones on the same page

It's the same situation. TroyK summed it up nicely.

You can throw out the idea of taking it more seriously, but it doesn't sound like it will be received and acted upon well by the guitarist at least.

 

[mambo4]

You're expecting professionalism from someone when that is not typically required in this context.

I'm kinda in agreement. With no desire to play gigs, the primary justification for trying to sound better (the audience) evaporates.

The 2 problems are volume and losing the music.

For volume I'd suggest arranging his amp as close to his ears as possible. On a stool or preferably a big box, at ear level, next to his head, so he is the primary victim of his own volume. Also, tell him (considerately) that he tends to get too loud. People are usually oblivious / thoughtless rather than deliberate schmucks.

Loosing the music kinds depends on the music. Are these covers or originals, or free jams?

For songs with a well fixed form, I have found getting everyone to focus on the arrangement together is effective. "This one feels a little loosey-goossey, we should talk about the arrangement" Force everyone to scrutinize every section and every transition and commit to what they are playing, or admit when they are still working it out. There is a common tendency to wing it through the fuzzy parts. And write it down, chart the arrangement somehow. This gives them something concrete to commit to. Stop the song and practice the sections and transitions "lets loop the second chorus into the verse a few time till we can nail it" Allow mistakes to derail the natural tendency plat through and finish the whole song -that's for a gig. Make everyone stop and get it right. Eventually the natural desire to not be the guy who derails things will kick in. Allow yourself to be called out for this kind of stuff too, and handle it with grace. If the effort arrange the song is sold as group commitment, it usually goes over well.

But it's a lot of work for no audience

 

[drewphishesp]

improvisation is expected, but to do that you need to listen before you play. thats the part thats missing.

 

[MVE]

Q. How do you bring it up???

A. You don’t

…just enjoy the jam.

 

[Mastermold]

Guitarist is too loud? Make him stop or leave the room. You dont want to damage your hearing. If he won’t turn down, kill him

I would just fit him with a shock collar. Every time he gets too loud, give him a zap. He’ll learn.

 

[bassicmike]

Have the drummer (his garage, yes?) say something along the lines of 'guys, we need to keep it down some, a.couple of neighbors have said something about the noise'

(I'm assuming there's neighbors and you're not out in the middle of nowhere)

Otherwise, just say the volume is getting out of control.

 

[Wasnex]

I wouldn't hesitate to address the issue, but chances are there is nothing you can do or say to change the behavior.

If you have already brought it up and no attempt was made to change, you have a choice: Either accept it and deal with it, or one of you needs to leave. If the rest of the band agrees with you, the guitar player gets the axe. If you are the only one with the problem, walk.

If you stay, wear hearing protection. If you decide to stay, it's on you and I suggest that you never bring it up again as it will degrade the hang. If you can't abide by this, leave.

A couple of things to consider.

• Most people like to hear themself about 6-10dB louder than everything else. In a small, enclosed space there is no way for everyone to get the desired 6-10dB. Anyone who insists on getting the desired level of headroom will be taking more than their fair share of available sound quality.
• What you can try in order to hear better is to elevate your cab and aim it at your head. This allows you to hear your bass as well as possible at the lowest possible volume. If you can play at a lower volume, perhaps the guitarist will not feel the need to crank up quite so much. A big caveat is many bass player hate the resulting tone, which tends to be lean down low and very bright, clear, and detailed.
• Some guitar players will agree to do exactly what I suggest you try...elevate and aim the cab at their head. Guitar tends to be loudest and brightest directly in front of the amp. Unfortunately, many guitar players seem to hate the sound that comes out of the front of their amp. Many use an open back cab and like to crank up so loud that they feel engulfed by the sound bouncing around the room. As a guitar player this may create a wonderful playing experience. Unfortunately it tends to mean the guitar is way too loud for everyone else.
• If the guitarist has a big tube amp, it's likely that part of his goal is to crank the output section to its limit for the best tone and feel. A 100W tube amp into an efficient guitar cab can be brutally loud. Most people can't tolerate being directly in front of a cranked 100W amp. A smaller amp can be useful. You might be surprised by how loud a 15-25W guitar amp can be.
• Make sure the guitar amp is not aimed at your head. I had a guitarist try to aim his rig across the stage at me and I made it clear it would not be tolerated. For the record it was a 100W Fender Twin Reverb .

Good luck!

 

[shirojiro]

How about sitting down as a group and listening to the recordings and gently highlighting the appts where he gets too loud or gets lost?

 

[basted]

I see his point. Whatever the objective of the group is the guitarists volume is wrong. A collective approach might work rather than just one member complaining.

 

[Bar Band Bassman]

its not that I want to gig, but I want to evolve as a band. Its hard to do that when not everyones on the same page

Never actually been in a band where everyone's on the same page. Or even the same book sometimes. Maybe hopefully the same chapter, at least...

BBB

 

[sean_on_bass]

if there are no gigs then there is no standard of professionalism that needs to be followed. with that said, asking someone to lower their volume is entirely appropriate and shouldn't be a dramatic request.

 

[TroyK]

if there are no gigs then there is no standard of professionalism that needs to be followed. with that said, asking someone to lower their volume is entirely appropriate and shouldn't be a dramatic request.

We all know this guitar player, though. He's not listening to or playing with the band (thus he gets lost/blows the form). Volume is a tell, not the problem itself.

 

[ravlin]

Bring ear muffs. Not plugs, big old over the ear cans. Get some for the rest of the band. When he gets too loud, put them on. If he's any kind of friend he'll take the hint. Then just keep the cans, 3 weeks from now when he forgets, put them back on. Keep them in sight as the most passive aggressive threat you can muster.

 

[Pings Bass]

its not that I want to gig, but I want to evolve as a band. Its hard to do that when not everyones on the same page

First find out if he also wants to evolve.

If yes, offer guidance (how to place his amp so he can hear it, how to listen too others and self and the same time, etc) and insist on reasonable volume.

If he doesn't care to improve, there's no point forcing the issue. Deal with it or walk.

 

[EliasA]

Bring the upright and a couple steel string acoustics and have everyone play without any amplication at all.

This is just fun regardless

 

[EliasA]

• If the guitarist has a big tube amp, it's likely that part of his goal is to crank the output section to its limit for the best tone and feel. A 100W tube amp into an efficient guitar cab can be brutally loud. Most people can't tolerate being directly in front of a cranked 100W amp. A smaller amp can be useful. You might be surprised by how loud a 15-25W guitar amp can be.

I have a dedicated 15W Fender tube amp that I bought specifically to bring and force guitarists to use. I paid 750 dollars to fix this problem and I don't even own an electric guitar.

 

[BassicJazzy]

Just two comments on this. First, consider yourself lucky that you have a group of friends who play at or near your level and a place to play, even if it's a garage. I would kill for that, as I sit whacking away at my bass in my bedroom speakeasy. Second, any group of musicians I ever played with, and I can count those experiences on 2 hands (since I have mostly played solo), always had one guy who wanted to go in his own direction and jam away without listening to what others were playing. There are two conditions where this is unacceptable: 1) the guy sucks, cannot keep time or stay in key, or 2) this happens more often than it does not.

The first band I played in the drummer was probably the best musician but took endless drum solos and was always advancing the beat, just could not hold constant tempo. This was really tough, but he drew more people than anyone else with his blazing solos. So that was acceptable. Then there was our organ player who had no idea what he was playing but had a cool rig. That was unacceptable.

That's all I got.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Q. How do you bring it up???

A. You don’t

…just enjoy the jam.

But clearly he's not enjoying it, nor are the other players. Except the "offender."