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Double Bass AI, Realist Rant

pdbass

pdbass

Jan 2, 2007
448
1,253
52
Pittsburgh
www.paulthompson.us
#1
Forgive me for addressing subjects that have been bludgeoned to death, but I'm just getting home from a gig and I need to rant. Last week, same room, same bass. Realist, AI Contra. Tasty little piano trio. BEAUTIFUL sound. Live, present. I didn't have to 'dig in' too much. I think I've found my rig :) . Tonight, same room, same bass. Realist, AI Contra. Guitar trio. 2 guitar amps. Powerful drummer. Mud. Mud that's a second late.:(

I'm starting to become increasingly frustrated with the whole "but I hear every note you're playing OUT HERE" thing. I even had another bassist play my stuff, and, sure enough, they were right, but what good is it, really, if your gear sounds great to everyone else and not you? I'm starting to think that I'd rather think that I'M burning than trust what everyone else is hearing.

Couple of points: I just got this bass. Beautiful 7/8 double bass, German, about 70 years old. HUGE sound. Loud as all hell. I tried going with "old reliable"--the Underwood--on it, but it just sounded awful. It took me a whole gig of moving it, trying one element, adjusting every little angle--and I just couldn't get it to sound good. I've had good and bad experiences with the Realist (I own an original). I bought one right about when they came out. I decided to put that one on the bass, and it's sounded really nice in certain situations. Really nice. I had the pleasure of touring with a really legendary saxophonist and it sounded beautiful--just about every night--with just about any amp, in alot of rooms.

I understand that people's experiences with the Contra+the Realist is not all that good--believe me, I know the bad--but I'm starting to think that the whole "omnidirectional" thing is just not working for me. Is that silly? I'm starting to think that maybe I like the sound of a speaker hitting me right in the back of the legs and the "immediacy" of that sound--as opposed to waiting for a sound to kind of 'blossom'. The contra worked with the Underwood, I think. The sound was quick enough. With the Realist, when I'm cranking out "Bright Size Life" in between a guitarist and drummer locked in a full diatribe, it seems as though my notes are coming out a nanosecond late. I don't know if I like that, and, no I really don't care how great it sounds in the house.

Here's my question: I'm leaning towards just buying a GK MB150 combo off of ebay. Should I? Am I being nuts over this directional thing? Am I right in expecting a different sound with that amp? A quicker sound? A more defined sound? I'm not sure if I'm looking for that "sound of the bass only louder" thing as much as that "quick, defined" sound that will still be quick and defined when the guitarist has a new pedalboard and is checking out "Blue Matter". Is it me or does the sound of this amp seem to travel around the club for a minute before I really hear it? Is the GK a can of worms? Are there GK+Realist users out there loving life right now? I need to know. Forever chasing that damn sound in my head. . .
 
#2
I feel your pain... I used to use the Realist and the Contra together. Mud's the word. As it turns out, I also had an Underwood on the bass at the time (this was on a laminate Meisel). As an experiment, I ran both pickups through a cheapo Radio Shack y-cord, straight into the Contra. Although it was by no means a real refined sound, it proved to be a workable solution that I used for quite awhile. I guess the two pickups balanced each other out somehow. Maybe you could try it out before you do any more shopping.

Oh yeah.... I also used to have an MB150..... it was a much brighter sound, almost brittle. This was before the realist... The Underwood thru the GK was like razor blades! I think the Realist and the GK might work out well. I had reliability issues with mine, but lots of folks use them without any major problems.
 
#3
I didn't appreciate how good my AI head was until I tossed my Contra EX cabinet and got something else. If you've got the combo, grab an extension cabinet of a non-AI variety and see what you think. If you like it, sell the combo and get an AI head and a cabinet. There's a whole group of folks here driving other cabinets, big and small, with AI heads with great results.
 
#5
The AI heads are good. I don't think the EQ is perfectly voiced for bass instruments, but it's close. In the end, I didn't like their cabinet very much. And I didn't enjoy the Realist very much either. Out of your whole rig, the only thing I would keep is the head.
 
#6
I don't really disagree with any of the prior posts. But if you like, here are three more low-cost low-risk suggestions:

(a) Try the Contra up on a chair.
(b) Try the Contra flipped on its back so that the 10" fires out into the room and the 5" driver is pointing up toward your ears (if you are standing close to it and over it more or less).
(c) Try a & b together.
 
#7
I have the focus R2 lll head and the new plastic contra EX cab. After some time I find myself of the opinion that on some gigs it works great. I do a lot of hotel and restaurant gigs where a one trip load in is nessicery. these are duos or drummer-less trio or gigs were the drummer has a small set and the piano is not mic'd. Contra is prefect for that. The contra is different than anything else and when the situation is right, IMHO there’s nothing like it. With other kinds of gigs the bass sound can feel too spread out to me, although everyone says they can hear me. Which is what PDBass is saying. Two guitar amps and a powerful drummer? That is not a downfiring cabinet gig!

I have gotten good results with the cabinet up on the chair as Bolo suggested when I am in a situation where I know I am going to have trouble hearing myself. But I don't think that is a perfect solution per say. I've pre ordered a wizzy ten. I think I've got a handle on which kind of gigs and rooms the contra EX works in. For those that don't,I am going to bring the wizzy 10. (And I have even ‘priced’ having it made stand ready ala Chris Fitzgerald at a local speaker place).
Lucky Players sometimes have two different basses for different kinds of gigs, I feel OK about having a choice with cabinets.
I like Marcus Johnson's idea of trying the Underwood and realist together. Again my point is different tools for different jobs and situations.
 
#8
Randy Ward said:
Again my point is different tools for different jobs and situations.
Click to expand...
I have felt that way for years. Now I'm not so sure. I've been using the Full Circle-AI Focus-VL208 rig for every gig lately and it seem perfect for big or small situations. My stuff is all over the place too. Big loud Rock gigs to small dinner trios.
 
#11
My experiences match up pretty well w/ Randy's.

I think by definition & by design the nature of the Contra / Coda sound is somewhat diffused, not unlike the acoustic sound of a bass heard from a distance away. I think that might actually be intentional. It is not really designed to knock down walls or compete w/ a Fender Twin Reverb and a Tube Screamer.

For me, like Randy, it works amazing well in certain settings (unfortunately very few nowadays), and not so well in others. I tried the AI extension cab too, and although it was a bigger sound, it really was kind of just more of the same, and not adequate for some of my gigs.

I once had a drummer who I like a lot tell me "It's the best sounding bass amp I've ever heard. It's just not loud enough." I think he was referring to the 'directness' of the sound, not sheer volume per say. Maybe the HP filter helps it sound more direct, as does tilting it back, raising it up, flipping it on its back, etc.

It is kind of a shame that in my gigging situations the environment (other musicians, crowd noise) can be so heavy that I feel like I have to bring a bigger cannon of an amp so I can "punch through", "cut through", all those rather aggressive things. Sounds like I am describing an offensive scheme for a football team, not my ideal amplified tone.

OTOH, I have done quieter gigs with the Contra where very seasoned local players have said, "You get a good sound." One stopped staring and poking at his beat to sh&* Selmer and just looked at me wide-eyed when I started to walk at the beginning of the first tune. After the tune, he said "Wow. You don't hear players that sound like that much anymore." I think he was referring to the diffused and "natural" tone of the Contra more than my technique or note choice.

So like Randy said, it varies, for me anyway.
 
#12
I've got the AI/Realist combo you speak of. All of the suggestions have been great and just to add more to the mix, have you played with the high pass filter. That and putting it on a chair has seemed to clear up alot of those problems for me. Of course, if I need more volume, I add a EA12 to the setup and it cuts just fine. That's the rig I use when I work with a big band. I do alot of violin/piano/bass gigs where the volume is wayyyy low and the AI on a chair is just perfect. Good luck.
 
#13
pdbass said:
Are there GK+Realist users out there loving life right now? I need to know. Forever chasing that damn sound in my head. . .
Click to expand...

I have been using a Realist through a GK MB150S for the past few years and I'm quite pleased with it. I too found the AI Contra too indisticnt. I like the "immediate" sound you get with a conventional speaker and the GK has a "tight" sound which helps give the Realist a nice, focused sound with ample control of the crucial midrange frequencies. To be honest, I've never gotten a bad sound with this pickup/amp combo except at high volume levels where the Realist tends to become indistinct on the low notes. But then again, none of the other piezo pickups I've used (Underwood, Bass Max, Revoltion Solo, Fishman BP-100) sounded very good at higher volumes either.

Another big advantage to the GK is the portability. I have the padded carrying bag which allows me to remain in the "one trip from the car" club even on doubling gigs! It also sounds great with electric bass and the small profile makes it perfect for theater-pit work. I've even used the little GK with an extension cabinet (GK 112 NEO) on higher volume gigs where it pumps out a lot of sound...it's really quite versatile.

I know that some folks here on talkbass don't care for this amp and maybe it's not the most "natural" or "acoustic" sound when compared to some of the newer high end gear, but I think it's a great little amp and a lot of bassist I know seem to agree. Then again, what I read about on talkbass and what I see and hear on the local scene are very different things.

BTW I bought my GK at Sam Ash where it had been discounted when the new Series III models came out. Sam Ash has a pretty good return policy, so maybe you could work out an arrangement where you can try the amp out on a few gigs before deciding if it's the right amp for you.

Although I still like to read about the latest bass gear, I really feel like after years of trying out different strings, pickups and amplifiers that I have finally found the right combination for me and my instrument. It's a nice feeling when you finally get there.

Good luck on your quest.

- Steve
 
#14
I use a realist w/ a GK mb 112 and have been playing this setup for about 8 years now. I am quite happy w/ it. I love the amp- it is easy to move around, has a big sound, and you can get a lot of different tones from it. I also play my electric thru it when I don't need a larger rig. You can also add ext. speakers to it for a larger room. As far as the tone of the realist, at the time I bought it, it was the best sound for me that I had come across yet. I still haven't heard a p/up I like more, though I haven't heard many of the newer ones. You can get some punch out of it and the GK is a workhorse. I used an SWR workingman's 12 before, and I would never go back. My only complaint is that I have noticed as of the last couple months some boominess going on at high volumes, but I think that's just the way it is when you crank an acoustic bass up. I did notice that changing the angle of the plug seems to reduce the feedback somehow.
 
#15
Judelspice said:
I use a realist w/ a GK mb 112 and have been playing this setup for about 8 years now. I am quite happy w/ it. I love the amp- it is easy to move around, has a big sound, and you can get a lot of different tones from it. I also play my electric thru it when I don't need a larger rig. You can also add ext. speakers to it for a larger room. As far as the tone of the realist, at the time I bought it, it was the best sound for me that I had come across yet. I still haven't heard a p/up I like more, though I haven't heard many of the newer ones. You can get some punch out of it and the GK is a workhorse. I used an SWR workingman's 12 before, and I would never go back. My only complaint is that I have noticed as of the last couple months some boominess going on at high volumes, but I think that's just the way it is when you crank an acoustic bass up. I did notice that changing the angle of the plug seems to reduce the feedback somehow.
Click to expand...

Judelspice, I could have written this exact same post. Everything you wrote applies to me tool except that I've used this pickup/amp combo for fewer years than you (more like three). I even used a SWR WM12 before I got the GK.

- Steve
 
#16
Paul -- Good to hear from you. For those that don't know of Paul Thompson, he's one of the baddest cats in town -- works with everybody -- and swings his @ss off!

I agree with many of these posts -- I think that the AI combos sound fantastic when you're in a kind, acoustic setting. When you've got loud drums & guitar -- a more traditional bass amp seems to drive the band better.

I tried a Focus head with a Euphonic NL210 at Bob G's and it was a really nice combination. Can't say much about the Realist -- other than it didn't work well for me.

I'm curious -- last time I talked to you you said you were liking the SWR Working Pro 12 for upright gigs. Is the honeymoon over with that amp?
 
#17
Let me be the first to announce that I'm a card-carrying member of the Jason Hollar fan club!! Hey, man! Thanks for the kind words! Great to read (?) from you! We've got to hook up when Feb starts.

I'm still using that SWR WorkingPro 12. Nice little amp. I'm using it mostly for smaller electric gigs. In fact, I'm leaving it over at the CLO Cabaret since it seems like I play there so much. It's a perfect amp for that room for either bass. I was also using it for some "louder" acoustic bass stuff, but it's just so damn big (bigger than a Workingman's 12--and heavier) that's it's a little impractical to haul around 4 times/week with my HUGE new bass. I love getting that great sound, but I kinda hate having to drag around a "rig" to get that sound on my DB, you know? If I can get a good sound on my acoustic with one unit that I can carry with one arm, that's the way I'd like to go. . . . Lazy me. I played a great Jazz club in Michigan (the Firefly?) about 4 months ago that had a GK MB150 as the house amp. I dug it. (The room was pretty amazing, too) I just bought one on eBay. I'll give you the verdict sometime next week.

BTW, Jason, you gotta check out my new axe! 70-year old German bass, 7/8! February!
 
#18
I tried a series II GK MBS-150 as well. It sounds pretty good with the Barbera pickup -- especially since that p/u has more output than most. The GK's are so darn light too...and relatively cheap, compared to AI & EA...

I just wish the GK had a tweeter. It sounds so -- boxy. I've always wondered about swapping out the GK speaker with a coaxial or wizzer-type cone...but by then you've got so much money in it, why not buy a better amp to begin with?

I'm still thinking a Euphonic Wizzy combo might be the best "big" little amp...but it's $1199...

That plus the Mesa Walkabout Scout. It has both conventional and downfiring speakers, and a 300 watt head at 4 Ohms...$1200...awesome sound -- especially for doubling.
 
#19
Hey, guys, I am new here, but wanted to throw in my 2 cents in response to anyone thinking of the Mesa Walkabout Scout Combo. I've been using this for about a year with upright + realist as well as electric, and I was hoping it was going to be my panacea rig. Well, I feel like in my experience, perhaps similar to the AI combos, the amp sounds great but the downfiring woofer makes things just too indistinct, boomy, and unnatural sounding for upright. It is super powerful and the amp sounds fantastic with electric, and granted I haven't experiemented much using the head with other cabinet combinations, but it hasn't given me the sound I was hoping for doublebass. Hope that is helpful to someone.
 
#20
I've been playing a Full Circle/Contra rig for going on three years now, and I like it a lot. The downfiring thing doesn't really bother me.

At first, the biggest obstacle was getting over the fact that the Contra was never going my double bass sound like what an electric bass thought it might sound like if it were a double bass. My bass isn't a directional instrument; the sound spreads. Why shouldn't my amp do the same thing?

I played for many years through a GK RB800 head (left over from my rock days) through a generic 12-inch cab, using an Underwood pickup and no preamp. It took a long time to get that sound out of my head. So, at first, I did everything I could to make my Contra sound like that -- tipping the cab back, putting it on chairs, etc.

Now, with rare exceptions, I just pretty much set all the knobs at 12:00, use the hi-pass when I need to, leave it firing straight down at the floor.
 

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