Alternating fingers: Does it need to be perfect?

[40Hz]

I understand your points of view.

I alternate with both fingers with ou any kind of problems. But there are some tunes, or some styles, or some basses, that sound better with only one finger.

Jamerson did it, for example.

When playing bossa nova, or samba with very light plucking, with just an acoustic guitar and an acoustic or semi-hollow bass, you notice.

Playing rock, with a full band, it is not noticeable.

It's the down stroke /up stroke, with a pick. It's noticeable.

I will agree it may give you a different feel. But my point was if it gives you a different volume consistency compared to alternating fingers (which is what I thought we were talking about) you need to practice alternating finger technique more.

As far as Jamerson goes, he had his own style. While I find his approach interesting, I don’t extrapolate anything from it other than it worked for him. I don’t think it’s a good approach for most players as evidenced by how few bass guitarists play that way despite the details of Jamerson’s technique being common knowledge.

My feeling is try it. And sure, if it works for you, go for it. But I also think it’s a very limiting playing style for a lot of other styles and genres of music. Jamerson had his niche, his brilliant musical inventiveness, and a unique playing style that worked well with it. How well his technique, if taken in isolation, would work with what anybody else is doing or playing is something each individual player would need to determine for his or her self.

 

[fhm555]

Blah Blah Blah, I come from a family of classically trained musicians, doesn't mean anything if you don't enjoy what you are doing. I am self-taught and have all the flaws that come with that. I also make more in one gig than the sum total of what they have made in their lifetimes playing music. So, you can worry about some guy with a stick up his behind or you can do what makes sense to you and what makes you happy.

Then is it safe to say they are on the dole or are they successful in other endeavors because they were possessed of the wisdom to understand the uncertainty of a career as a performer and instead chose a more stable occupation? Not disagreeing at all as i’m also mostly self taught, but why such a condescending and negative attitude? We all have our strong points but we don’t all have the same strong points.

 

[lat]

...sometimes it is ergonomic to use the same finger twice, if it sets up the fingering for a difficult section that is coming up.

This.

 

[J_Bass]

I will agree it may give you a different feel. But my point was if it gives you a different volume consistency compared to alternating fingers (which is what I thought we were talking about) you need to practice alternating finger technique more.

As far as Jamerson goes, he had his own style. While I find his approach interesting, I don’t extrapolate anything from it other than it worked for him. I don’t think it’s a good approach for most players as evidenced by how few bass guitarists play that way despite the details of Jamerson’s technique being common knowledge.

My feeling is try it. And sure, if it works for you, go for it. But I also think it’s a very limiting playing style for a lot of other styles and genres of music. Jamerson had his niche, his brilliant musical inventiveness, and a unique playing style that worked well with it. How well his technique, if taken in isolation, would work with what anybody else is doing or playing is something each individual player would need to determine for his or her self.

Yes, I agree. Jamerson was Jamerson, it's difficult enough to do his lines with 2 fingers, i can´t imagine doing them with 1.

If you are talking about volume, then I agree with you 100%. That was not what I was thinking, though.

 

[Glenn Johnson]

I am a self taught bass player that has been taking lessons and it has helped me immensely. Things like flying fingers have improve quite a bit. My main teacher is a professional rock musician who has not taught before. I decided to try out a person that was classically trained and 3 times the price. He pointed out something to me. Although I DO alternate my fingers, its isnt perfect. Sometimes I will use my index twice in a row. He says that needs to be fixed. My rock teacher has not mentioned anything.

What does everyone think? Does it affect the sound at all?

Tell that to James Jamerson (well you can't) and Geddy Lee, both of whom use ONE finger.

 

[Yellow Bang66]

I am a self taught bass player that has been taking lessons and it has helped me immensely. Things like flying fingers have improve quite a bit. My main teacher is a professional rock musician who has not taught before. I decided to try out a person that was classically trained and 3 times the price. He pointed out something to me. Although I DO alternate my fingers, its isnt perfect. Sometimes I will use my index twice in a row. He says that needs to be fixed. My rock teacher has not mentioned anything.

What does everyone think? Does it affect the sound at all?

If you want o get faster you should try to be perfect. yes,it's difficult at first,but what isn't? back when I first started It was maddening! I started out playing with a pick. and I thought gettting perfect up & down strokes was hard. I switched back to fingers because no one was playing with a pick, back then. My teacher said the samething you're doubling one finger not alternating! He had me play scales very slow (special needs "slooow") while carefully looking at my fingers or playing in front of a mirror helped. He pointed out when you double up you'll never be able to play faster runs! You'll find yourself fumbling/stumbling around harder lines, especially if you have to skip between/over strings. it be came painfully apparent, or when I had to accent certain beats in a song/run. watch Billy sheehan videos on how to play faster. It doesn't have to be "Perfect" but it helps to have it down, like Said, If you find yourself goofing up a fast bass run it's probably your "sloppy" plucking hand! Just be patient, stick with it, play slooow, just to get that muscle memory down,and it'll be a breeze.
play with a metronome with different beats accented for a week, only for 10 minutes a day(Impotant!). it can drive you crazy, or burn you out. So,now it's Easy.I can play anything fast.& it Helped my timing too! It's not that hard,you just have to buckle down for a little while. GL
I think what hampered my plucking hand too was deciding which finger was "1"(middle or index). I felt middle was most comfortable, but i think almost every one else starts with their Index. it was a hard habit to break. just stick with it. it'll pay off in the end.GL

 

[J_Bass]

Anthony Jackson is a great example, because he varies a lot.

He uses one finger, two fingers, or more.

And when using one finger, he either uses the thumb or the index.

I really believe that it depends on how you feel the tune, I can´t explain it with better words.

 

[Mike Sorr]

I thought I alternated my plucking fingers the way I was taught until I saw a video of myself playing and was shocked to see how often I play with just my index finger. I am now consciously trying to alternate all the time, but believe it or not, I find it harder to do than I figured it would be. I’m from the “if it sounds good it is good” school of playing. While I’m always trying to improve, that’s mostly for my own sense of perfectionism. Not regularly alternating my fingers has never cost me a gig.

 

[Pings Bass]

It doesn't have to be perfectly alternating (string crossings from high to low can obvs be more efficient without alternating), but it should be intentional. I used to teach and practice paradiddles with a metronome. (I=index, M=middle) I-M-I-I M-I-M-M at 60 BPM, quarters, then eighths. Someday you can play 16ths. Stick with quarter notes until you can't hear any difference in tone between the fingers.

 

[Luke the Fluke]

Reading this thread I’m thinking my three finger technique isn’t as common as I thought it would be?!
For me the important thing is the feel of the music - if I can’t do alternating 1 2 1 2 fingers - consistently across a variety of attacks in a way that when recorded I couldn’t tell from the wave shape which is which - then I need to practice more. Once you can do the consistent tone with both (or three) fingers you can then have the control to accentuate different notes

Depending on the music then I might use the third finger either 1 2 3 1 2 3 or 1 2 3 2 1 depending on the song

 

[Joebone]

Ummp.. Your teacher would really hate me. Sometimes my plucking hand looks more like I'm playing a banjo. I use my thumb, index and middle finger when playing the intro to Sweet Emotion.

I've been dabbling with this, using the side of the thumb to stroke, rather than to slap! My band does a lot of originals, in Spanish. In one tune I have this line that is sort of an old-school cha-cha-cha riff that anchors the chorus each time it comes around. I've been struggling to really nail note length, and seeking a different timbre for the lowest note (root on V chord, five on i chord - kind of a pedal effect as the lick repeats, especially as the high note in each triad is the octave of the lowest note), trying to to get that big woody-bloom sound you'd associate with the great Cuban upright players like Cachao and Cachaito. At our last gig, out of the blue, I started using those three fingers, and got exactly what I'd been seeking. Gonna be exploring this technique more in the coming months, especially as I see how it overlaps with palm muting...

 

[SteveCS]

There's no such thing as a "classically trained electric bass method."
...

In a literal sense that's true. My point was to the difference between formal progressive methods and ad hoc less formal approaches. The former is as much about equipping the student with tools for effective learning, practice and development as it is about the actual technical content. IMHO that's more of a 'gift that keeps on giving' than the less disciplined approaches. But that's just my unashamedly biased opinion based on my own experiences. The biggest problem these days is people expect instant results from zero graft, without which they discover they have not the patience or attention span required to see it through. Again, just IMHO.

 

[InhumanResource]

I am a self taught bass player that has been taking lessons and it has helped me immensely. Things like flying fingers have improve quite a bit. My main teacher is a professional rock musician who has not taught before. I decided to try out a person that was classically trained and 3 times the price. He pointed out something to me. Although I DO alternate my fingers, its isnt perfect. Sometimes I will use my index twice in a row. He says that needs to be fixed. My rock teacher has not mentioned anything.

What does everyone think? Does it affect the sound at all?

Yes... But I don't do it

 

[Rip Van Dan]

I am a self taught bass player that has been taking lessons and it has helped me immensely. Things like flying fingers have improve quite a bit. My main teacher is a professional rock musician who has not taught before. I decided to try out a person that was classically trained and 3 times the price. He pointed out something to me. Although I DO alternate my fingers, its isnt perfect. Sometimes I will use my index twice in a row. He says that needs to be fixed. My rock teacher has not mentioned anything.

What does everyone think? Does it affect the sound at all?

Starting out, I think it's an excellent thing to do just to make sure that you are involving both fingers in your playing. However, the whole reason we do that is to build up dexterity to allow us to play a wide variety of bass lines accurately and in time. Alternating fingers is also usually the easiest way to play without getting fatigued.

HOWEVER, after you have successfully integrated that second finger, it's no longer a big deal. Down the road you will learn other plucking techniques such as 3 and 4 finger plucking, raking strings to increase speed, and flicking strings (much like double-picking with the tip of your finger). All of these become tools in your bass technique work chest that you can pull out as needed.

No one should give you crap for not alternating you finger plucking for every note as long as you play the correct notes in the correct rhythm, but you may very get some criticism if you only use one finger. So once you have the technique down, use whatever works best for you.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

I am a self taught bass player that has been taking lessons and it has helped me immensely. Things like flying fingers have improve quite a bit. My main teacher is a professional rock musician who has not taught before. I decided to try out a person that was classically trained and 3 times the price. He pointed out something to me. Although I DO alternate my fingers, its isnt perfect. Sometimes I will use my index twice in a row. He says that needs to be fixed. My rock teacher has not mentioned anything.

What does everyone think? Does it affect the sound at all?

AND...what do you mean or does your teacher mean as a "classically trained" electric bassist? That's an oxymoron. Classical music uses a stand-up bass and that's a whole different animal that uses different plucking, posture (stand-up with bass resting on the floor) techniques, and bows. There is no such thing as "classically trained electric bassist. Classically trained bassists are usually found playing a double bass in symphonies, string quartets, etc. Plucking techniques on a double bass are MUCH different than what you will use on an bass guitar.

 

[jnuts1]

if you are pedaling one note you should be very even with your technique. but as soon as you add rhythmic variations your fingers will mostly likely vary too.

 

[Eilif]

I disagree with the initial assumption that alternating fingers every single note without change is "perfectly".

Sometimes 1 finger is best when you want absolute consistency, Sometimes 2 or more fingers are required. Sometimes alternate, sometimes the same finger as you cross strings bass-ward and other situations. Sometimes thumb. I mostly alternate, but I do all of these over the course of a given 3-set gig. They all have their place.

The only reason I'd get particularly good at alternating fingers is when a tune is so fast that you have to alternate and at that point the decision is out of your hands anyway.

 

[fishdreams]

I've restarted from square 1 several times in my life and there is nothing wrong with that. However, that was because my musical needs or ambitions changed, and consequently strong points became limitations. It doesn't negate the fact that whatever I did before worked just fine up till then.

A teacher should work with you and your needs, because there is no one right way to play - there are certain capabilities you and I need to obtain which the music we play requires, and those needs can be entirely different to serve this or that music. I take lessons from a extremely fluid (I'd say virtuoso) player who himself always alternates, as that is how he started on classical guitar and it has worked for him. Through him I learned to stay on the same finger when jumping from a higher to a lower string, as he gave me the choice and it served me well (as I have some double bass training it makes complete sense to me).

A teacher who tells you that you have to start from scratch basically because you don't play like he does, displays a very unmusical way of thinking, in my book.

 

[attackz]

Whatever you're doing you should be doing it intentionally. If you think that you're strictly alternating your fingers but you're not, that's a problem. If you try strictly alternating and decide that you don't like it, that's also fine but the decision should be intentional. I would consider at least trying what your teacher suggests to see for yourself if there's a benefit to it.

One thing that I haven't seen in this discussion is detail on when you are not alternating. Is it more often than just when you're moving down a string?

And one last point -- is this the only thing this classical teacher has you working on right now? Has he talked about harmony at all?

 

[bolophonic]

I won't say which is best, but I will just leave you with this thought...

IME, classical techniques are taught as a series of coherent 'building blocks' that eventually equip the player with the faculty to accomodate just about any musical demands without adaptation. A flaw introduced early on and left unchecked (or not fixed in good time) will hinder the player later as the demands of the music grow. Such flaws might not become apparent until they prevent the learning of more advanced techniques that depend on the earlier learning. This might be several years hence, so will require significant 'unlearning'. The alternative is the workaround, but then what happens when you encounter the next advanced technique? Now you have the original flaw and the workaround getting in the way.

So I guess it depends on where you want to go. The problem with the bass guitar is that it is relatively easy to get reasonable results quickly with the most scrappy of techniques provided the music is not too demanding.

So my $0.02 is to just beware that the 'if it feels/sounds right it is right' or 'do what's right for you' approaches might let you down in the long run...

YMMV

As a self-taught bassist from the “do what feels right” branch, I think this is all excellent advice. I was able to get some decent guidance on my technique early on, which made all the difference in my evolution. But after having to correct some minor bad habits after 20-25 years, I understood even better how important that part of it really is.

Don't confuse "perfect" with "strict." These are two related, but separate concepts. I would argue being needlessly "strict" is the opposite of "perfection" (at least, in the real world outside the pressures of a conservatory environment).

It is normal and permissible to use the same plucking finger twice in a row. For example "raking" the same finger across multiple strings is a common technique. Or a lot of players play slow passages with one finger, and only use alternate plucking as necessary on faster sections. Or sometimes it is ergonomic to use the same finger twice, if it sets up the fingering for a difficult section that is coming up.

Bruce Lee said "be like water" and I think that is a great philosophy for rock bassists. There is no "one size fits all" strict path to perfection in rock music.

Thank you for summing up what I was thinking. To me, the idea of strictly using alternate fingers represents limited thinking, but the idea of using your fingers to be able to alternate “perfectly” is something to strive towards.