Am I diva for not wanting to play for free?

[chicago_mike]

Are you making enough money gigging/touring?

If so, then youve got nothing to complain about, this isnt some new phenomena.

If not, maybe you should have chosen a better paying career?

Didn't mean to sound gripy. Just nailing down the fact that this is a career...Obviously its not new.

Some "jammers" get it..come out on jam night. Or ask to sit in and don;t expect to sit in. But I have noticed some jammers just start to get hot stuff attitudes. But hey I do more touring now than local work, thank goodness.

 

[MatticusMania]

You cannot compare L.A. to many other places here in the states, and your missing the point of my previous posts. They don't care how good you are all they want is warm bodies going through the motions for as cheap as possible. This is why they get away with pay to play. Tourists come to L.A thinking they are going to see rock stars, and so they go to the Whiskey or the Roxy etc. Once they are at the club they drink, and watch some crappy ass band (usually, but not always) playing way to load. Anyone could be onstage, and there will be a certain crowd almost guaranteed so the clubs force the bands to pay to play the club with the promise of "exposure". The bands are expected to sell tickets to make their money which is how it works for all major acts except people know who the major acts are and then the band will make money, but when your unknown GOOD LUCK.. As far as playing the local clubs on the outskirts of Hollywood it almost as bad. Here the club owners know they are in a position of having many many bands to choose from. Again there is no following for bands here as people just go to a club knowing some band will be there, and its better to see whoever than drive a hundred miles to see a band you may like. There are lots of great bands here in L.A., and the jobs go to the lowest bidder. I guess until you have experienced L.A. you just dont understand.

Funny, I do live in LA, and I see bands with followings all the time. When I like a band, I make the effort to go to their shows and show support. Thats how it works when you make original music. Not a big fan of coverbands, so I dont go to those clubs.

Try paying your phone bill with that.

Huh, I tried, but apparently Ive already paid it...

 

[Rocky]

Nope, I'd say it's simply supply and demand then. Nothing to do with screwing anyone in my book, but clearly we disagree.

True here in L. A. there is way to many bands and so it becomes an over supply of bands vs jobs available, and yes band B is just competing for the job with price and so they get the job, but when band C comes along and does the job free then the only ones to gain are the club owners. I just don't get why anyone would not care, and continue to play for free knowing others are making a profit from their efforts. Obviously there is a demand for live music as we all know that clubs would not have bands if they could get away with it. So why shouldn't they pay for that service?

 

[Rocky]

Funny, I do live in LA, and I see bands with followings all the time. When I like a band, I make the effort to go to their shows and show support. Thats how it works when you make original music. Not a big fan of coverbands, so I dont go to those clubs.



Huh, I tried, but apparently Ive already paid it...

How far will you travel too see these bands? Most people do not travel to see a band. I was signed in 1987 with EMI, and have played every club on the strip for years. I know how it works with "original music"

 

[MatticusMania]

Imagine you work in a hardware store and your competitor starts selling the same products as you but 10% cheaper. Do you accuse them of stealing your customers?

Nope, thats business. You either start selling to your vendor at 9% cheaper, or you lose their business. Thats how it goes in the Window & Door Replacement Hardware business. I would expect other commerce to be the same...

Didn't mean to sound gripy. Just nailing down the fact that this is a career...Obviously its not new.

Some "jammers" get it..come out on jam night. Or ask to sit in and don;t expect to sit in. But I have noticed some jammers just start to get hot stuff attitudes. But hey I do more touring now than local work, thank goodness.

Awesome, that thats working out for you! Keep up your good work, man. Youre obviously doing something right.

 

[Brad Johnson]

While I agree with you, I don't think anyone here is arguing that its good to play for free doing fours sets at a bar... We're usually talking about original music in small venues (coffee houses / art bars) to get your music out there, sell some CDs, have some fun.

There's no way in hell that I'd do a bar gig like that for free - - That's *work*. Playing original music in a cool venue is *joy*, and I refuse to accept being condemned or being called "a prick" for doing what I love.

Sorry, Harry... I didn't see that distinction being universally made.

And there are people who will do a four set gig for free or peanuts. The funniest sub call I ever got was from a friend (a guitarist) whose bass player couldn't make an out of town gig. I'm near DC. The gig was in Wilmington, DE, well over an hour away. The pay IIRC was either $35 or $40 ( I seem to remember $35).




The reason was that this was one of the band's gigs where most of the money went towards paying for their truck.

I LOL'd. Not long and hard, just a short outburst. I told him I wasn't in the band, I was a sub which put me at an obvious disadvantage from jump. I didn't know what their sets and arrangements were among other things. And I obviously had no vested interest in their vehicle. I told him that while I don't have a problem handling those issues I couldn't do it for anywhere near what he mentioned.

He kind of bristled at that and asked what I'd charge. I said for a gig that long and out of town I'd need at least $200. He seemed genuinely surprised at that figure (which was in fact low) and said"

"You get $200 to play?"
"I usually get more than that"
"How do you get $200 to play?"
"By asking for it and developing a rep where people know that you'll do exactly what they need with no drama. Show up on time, prepared to play, dressed professionally, carrying yourself professionally, no excuses".

"Oh... can you hook me up?"
"You'll need to get your repertoire together and understand that the gigs aren't about you"

He knew what I was talking about. He didn't retain music well, didn't know many songs and wanted to solo in every song.

Needless to say I didn't do the gig. That band, which had been together for over ten years eventually broke up and their management kept everything. So much for working towards a common goal.


BTW I would've had to drive to Wilmington... the truck was just for their gear. For $35. It still cracks me up.

 

[MatticusMania]

How far will you travel too see these bands? Most people do not travel to see a band. I was signed in 1987 with EMI, and have played every club on the strip for years. I know how it works with "original music"

It depends on how much I like the band, how good they are, and how much of an entry fee there is. Ive travelled as far as San Diego to see a band that I really like.

Are you still playing those clubs? If youve been involved in the industry for so long then surely youve seen how its changed, yes? You know that most money made by bands these days is not from door/ticketsales/guarantees but rather how much merch you move, correct?

 

[Rocky]

And you are aren't being selfish because you want me to stay home in order to drive up the price of music so you can make more money? Pffft!

I started a long treatise on the situation surrounding my gig on Friday, but I deleted it. It's really none of your business.

If you've chosen a field where the market is such that you can't earn enough money to suit your lifestyle, then maybe you should consider a career change. I've done that at least three times in my life, and once it was to leave the music business. For a while I made my living in music, and it sucked, so I moved on. Later, I played in a lucrative cover band "on the side", but I hated the music. Now I play because I love to play. I do like to get paid for it, and much of the time I do, but that doesn't always happen, and not getting paid won't by itself stop me from playing. I'm sorry if that upsets you, but there it is. I do not plan to change.

If it makes you feel any better, I am playing original music.

All you guys who keep saying that all that has to happen is for everyone to stop playing for free to make things all hunky in the music business are, in my not so humble opinion, deluding yourselves. But even if it were true, it's not going to happen. We have to deal with the world as it is, not as it would be if we could change it to our benefit.

I don't want you to stay home and not play. I want you to stop playing for free so that those that hire will pay you for the work you are doing, and so that anyone else they hire will get paid. I really don't care if your playing originals, covers, or whatever. Again if you are playing in situation where someone is making a profit then you should get your share.. and if it makes you feel any better I play original music, but I do get paid for it.

 

[MatticusMania]

Sorry, Harry... I didn't see that distinction being universally made.

Maybe that distinction should be made. I don't know of any original bands in the area that are getting booked for 4 sets without pay. Its the norm around these parts that original bands are usually on a bill with at least 2-5 other bands, all playing a single set.

No way would I go play for 4 hours without pay while making money for the venue.

 

[peterbright]

You are being used.

 

[Rocky]

It depends on how much I like the band, how good they are, and how much of an entry fee there is. Ive travelled as far as San Diego to see a band that I really like.

Are you still playing those clubs? If youve been involved in the industry for so long then surely youve seen how its changed, yes? You know that most money made by bands these days is not from door/ticketsales/guarantees but rather how much merch you move, correct?

No I don't play those clubs any longer, and yes the money is in merchandise. I play some original music,and we don't work allot, but when we do I am always paid. We play various placesoutside of the Hollywood area that are willing to pay or the band leader wants to promote his name and he pays us. Admittedly this is usually the case, but I have made it clear that I will not play for less than a hundred bucks, and he likes my playing enough to pay me. I have more gigs at the local clubs playing blues rock type cover material, and its not allot of money. My point is only that if the club is selling drinks, and making money then they should pay the band for the service the band provides. If the band leader decides they want to play a club for free then thats on them, and I still get my hundred bucks. However, if the band leader get the club to pay a grand, then I still get a hundred bucks.

 

[Rocky]

Maybe that distinction should be made. I don't know of any original bands in the area that are getting booked for 4 sets without pay. Its the norm around these parts that original bands are usually on a bill with at least 2-5 other bands, all playing a single set.

No way would I go play for 4 hours without pay while making money for the venue.

Thats all I'm saying to! playing 4 hours a night doing cover material regardless of the style is work, and you should be paid. If you and your band want to do showcase material thinking there is opportunity to advance, get other gigs, meet VIPs then maybe there is value in that, and thats okay. Payment does not always have to be cash, and if your gaining from that then more power to you.

 

[MatticusMania]

No I don't play those clubs any longer, and yes the money is in merchandise. I play some original music,and we don't work allot, but when we do I am always paid. We play various placesoutside of the Hollywood area that are willing to pay or the band leader wants to promote his name and he pays us. Admittedly this is usually the case, but I have made it clear that I will not play for less than a hundred bucks, and he likes my playing enough to pay me. I have more gigs at the local clubs playing blues rock type cover material, and its not allot of money. My point is only that if the club is selling drinks, and making money then they should pay the band for the service the band provides. If the band leader decides they want to play a club for free then thats on them, and I still get my hundred bucks. However, if the band leader get the club to pay a grand, then I still get a hundred bucks.

But isnt that more of a 'hired gun'/sideman position, and not so much being a part of a band? May band doesnt work that way, we're a band. Sometimes we're a band with a man down. We don't have a large following, we have a few, but we're certainly not making any venues quota with our fans. Hell, my band rarely buys drinks from the bar, you can find them outside drinking in the parking lot though. If we bring the bar $50 in sales, are we owed that $50?

Thats all I'm saying to! playing 4 hours a night doing cover material regardless of the style is work, and you should be paid. If you and your band want to do showcase material thinking there is opportunity to advance, get other gigs, meet VIPs then maybe there is value in that, and thats okay. Payment does not always have to be cash, and if your gaining from that then more power to you.

Playing for 4 hours is work regardless of the material youre playing, and I agree at that point the band should be getting paid. Most commonly we're playing 45 minute sets with a few other bands, and the goal there is that, with 4 bands all trying to bring in an audience, youre likely to be playing to someone rather than an empty room. We may get another gig out of it if we happen to impress someone, and its possible we'll make a new contact that might hook us up later on, its happened.

 

[David Jayne]

So called "Pro's" who are being out done to gigs by weekend warriors with other jobs, take a step back and think about how to change your approach. What can you bring to the table that the weekend warrior can't? If you can't think of any reason to get a club to hire you over the freebie, then you should look at a career change.




I don't get paid for any of my hobbies and have to reach into my own pocket to do most things that I enjoy doing. Music isn't any different to me. If it is to you, then that's your problem, not mine. I'm not going to stop what I do for fun (and free) just so that someone else can make a living from it.

Well, here's my problem with this attitude, and I'm talking cover bands here, not original showcases- there are lots and lots of rather good weekend warriors out there, with money to buy nice gear, PA equipment, light shows, etc. They may not be as good as my band, but if they are "good enough," well, there goes my paycheck. Around here, clubs hire less-than-stellar weekend warrior bands for cheap, because the club has a built-in crowd. As long as the band doesn't actually drive everyone screaming from the club, they are deemed "good enough." So I should give up? Just quit? Hmmm......

Regarding your next point, music is unique in that it's one of a very few things that are: 1) lots of fun and: 2) you can get paid to do it. Hobby? Not very many people get paid to windsurf or fly model airplanes. On the other hand, few people will shingle your roof or mow your lawn for free. But if they did, roofers and landscapers would be in trouble. Because of this, IMO, performing music treads a fine line between things that should be considered hobby's vs. careers or jobs. IMO.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Maybe that distinction should be made. I don't know of any original bands in the area that are getting booked for 4 sets without pay. Its the norm around these parts that original bands are usually on a bill with at least 2-5 other bands, all playing a single set.

No way would I go play for 4 hours without pay while making money for the venue.

Even if you were playing music you love?


We've reached an interesting point in this conversation. This old joke immediately came to mind:

The gentleman is seated next to an attractive and proper young lady and engages her in conversation. Suddenly he says, "Would you sleep with me for a million dollars?" The lady blushes, but seeing the humor in the request, agrees. "Well, would you sleep with me for five dollars?"

"Certainly not!" she says, now offended. "Just what kind of woman do you think I am?"

"Madam, we've already established what you are. Now we're just haggling over the price."*

What I'm hearing from Harry and now you is that you have limits too. It's not "If I love the music I'll play for free... period". You both understand that your talent has value, hobby or not. That's all most of us are pointing out.


*http://friarsfires.blogspot.com/2008/09/now-were-just-haggling.html

 

[ggunn]

I don't want you to stay home and not play. I want you to stop playing for free so that those that hire will pay you for the work you are doing, and so that anyone else they hire will get paid.

Sorry, not going to do it. I mean, I don't intentionally look for non-paying gigs and I cheerfully take the money when I can get it, but here in Austin if you are not a named draw, if you take a stand never to play for free (or for peanuts), then you won't play much. It's a fact of life and nothing either you or I can do will change that.

One thing that hasn't been brought out is the degree of compromise you make when you are paying for a fee. Like I said earlier, I was in a fairly lucrative cover band for a while. We played weddings and corporate parties and such, but I got really sick of it. How many times can you play <fill in the worst cover you've ever had to play> and pretend to enjoy it? Everything is a tradeoff.

But anyway, no, I am not going to refuse to play for free, not now, not ever. If the Work:Fun+Money ratio is favorable, I'm going for it.

 

[Rocky]

But isnt that more of a 'hired gun'/sideman position, and not so much being a part of a band? May band doesnt work that way, we're a band. Sometimes we're a band with a man down. We don't have a large following, we have a few, but we're certainly not making any venues quota with our fans. Hell, my band rarely buys drinks from the bar, you can find them outside drinking in the parking lot though. If we bring the bar $50 in sales, are we owed that $50?


Playing for 4 hours is work regardless of the material youre playing, and I agree at that point the band should be getting paid. Most commonly we're playing 45 minute sets with a few other bands, and the goal there is that, with 4 bands all trying to bring in an audience, youre likely to be playing to someone rather than an empty room. We may get another gig out of it if we happen to impress someone, and its possible we'll make a new contact that might hook us up later on, its happened.

Yes it is being a hired gun, and I hate to break it to anyone who doesn't realize it, but no matter what you play you are a hired gun unless you are the front person, wrote the songs or own all right to the bands name and merchandise. The "all for one and one for all" is a nice fantasy, but trust me when push comes to shove money talks, and your "friends" that get offered a deal if they agree to drop the band and use our guys will stiff you in a Kansas City second assuming you get that far. This is above all else a business, and a very cutthroat one at that. The more you give the more they take, and the less respect you will get. Trust me there are thousands of bass players just waiting to take your gig when your band gets signed, and they will because the record companies want it that way. Very few bands stay with the original lineup.

 

[Rocky]

Sorry, not going to do it. I mean, I don't intentionally look for non-paying gigs and I cheerfully take the money when I can get it, but here in Austin if you are not a named draw, if you take a stand never to play for free (or for peanuts), then you won't play much. It's a fact of life and nothing either you or I can do will change that.


But anyway, no, I am not going to refuse to play for free, not now, not ever. If the Work:Fun+Money ratio is favorable, I'm going for it.

That is why they pay musicians with beers in Austin. I contemplated moving to Austin once because I love Texas blues, and most of my heros are from the area, but I know that what you are saying is true, and I'm not trying to get a record deal at this point in life. the music I like to play doesn't pay much so I stayed here in L.A. playing music i'm not crazy about, but I'm playing music and getting paid so its a trade off.

 

[SactoBass]

IMO, performing music treads a fine line between things that should be considered hobby's vs. careers or jobs. IMO.

That is a true statement. The fact that performing music can be strictly a joyous hobby or a money makin job is exactly the reason for some of the polar opposite opinions in this thread.

Cats who expect to get paid want the free-playin cats to stop playin for free. Well, that just ain't gonna happen. There will always be cats who dig playin so much that they could care less whether they get paid or not. The money-seekin cats will just have to continue to deal with it and try to "out do" the free-playin cats by playin better and bringin larger audiences to the venues.

I for one could care less whether I get paid cuz I play for the sheer joy of playin! That's how I have done it for the past 38 years of playin bass, and that's how I intend to keep on doin it!

 

[Joe.shaffer]

I dont leave the house for anything less than a bill.

You sir, are an expensive date.