Am I diva for not wanting to play for free?

[SteveC]

Wow, lots of broad reaches here. Flying a plane for fun and playing in a band for fun are apples and oranges - or at least a stretch.

I guess I will continue to do what I can in my location to make playing music a respected thing that is deserving of compensation, and hope there aren't too many people out to do their best to destroy that opinion.

 

[Crazyeelboy]

Because the band that costs is better and/or draws more patrons?

Bingo!

 

[chicago_mike]

The more that musicians/bands play for free, the more that club-owners and others will expect musicians and bands to play for free.
QUOTE]

This screws guys like me. My 9-5 is gigging / touring.

My office is my bass, my boss is my bass, my career is my bass, my vacation is my bass. Asking me to play for free is asking non career muso's to do their job for free. Nothing less.

Play for fun? I did that at 17.

 

[TheDude007]

Rocky, I gotta disagree with you. While it may seem that the playing for free hobbyist amateurs are stealing professional gigs, they really are not your competition if you are a real pro.

+1

Really, to me this seems like kind of a ridiculous argument. I was trying really hard to think about any gig we've played and not gotten some sort of compensation. Maybe things are just different here in the midwest, but I can't honestly think of a gig where we haven't been offered anything. Even if it's only free beer or some food, or something at the show, that's good enough for me.

That's not to say that I think the OP was wrong. If I were good enough to be hired out to play in other bands, I would expect some compensation too. There's always a big difference between musicians that depend on it for a living and those that don't. I know around here, in an original band at a club or bar, you usually get 3-4 free drinks per member, and a cut of the door. 9 times out of 10, the door doesn't pay worth a damn. We usually try to be generous too, if we're on a bill with an out of town band and the door doesn't give us hardly anything, then we usually try to pass that on to the traveling band so that they can at least recoup gas money.

 

[SactoBass]

By the way, for the record, I like the fact that opinions differ so much on TB. That is what makes it interesting and fun. If you would imagine for a moment where everyone would have exactly the same opinion, things would get ultra boring real quick.

So, keep those differing opinions coming!!

Btw, I posted this for free.

 

[JMacBass65]

Sure you are, youre providing entertainment for those who like to come out and watch bike races.

Er - ever go watch a 45 yo Cat 5 bike racer?

Right, didn't think so.

You know watches the typical local bike race??

Wives, husbands, GF, BF, etc.
And....the other racers waiting for their start time.

Bottom line is racing at this level is not revenue generating for anyone, including the sponsoring club, etc.

There are sponsors who benefit - and they typically DO pay for that by supplying prize money, bonus prizes etc, and one can win something with a bit of risk, luck and talent. So some do "get paid".

Now, races that actually DO generate significant spectator interest tend to have professionals that DO get paid to race.

 

[N.F.A.]

By the way, for the record, I like the fact that opinions differ so much on TB. That is what makes it interesting and fun. If you would imagine for a moment where everyone would have exactly the same opinion, things would get ultra boring real quick.

So, keep those differing opinions coming!!

Btw, I posted this for free.

Not if you're a registered member you didn't...

 

[MatticusMania]

This screws guys like me. My 9-5 is gigging / touring.

My office is my bass, my boss is my bass, my career is my bass, my vacation is my bass. Asking me to play for free is asking non career muso's to do their job for free. Nothing less.

Play for fun? I did that at 17.

Are you making enough money gigging/touring?

If so, then youve got nothing to complain about, this isnt some new phenomena.

If not, maybe you should have chosen a better paying career?

 

[JMacBass65]

This is an interesting point.

If you think you are "getting paid" to play music when you walk out of the bar with an extra $50.00 in your hand, you need to think in real terms of the economics involved.

Total the hours you have spent practicing the material at home, driving to and from rehearsal, rehearsing with the band, driving to and from the gig, playing the gig. Factor in gasoline.

Now, divide that $50.00 in your mitt by the number of total hours above. What are you worth per hour? Are you getting it?

I would hazard a guess that most of us here on TB are PAYING to play music, even when we think we're "getting paid."

You are really on point with this. It is token compensation at my level. Helps pay for gear maint. and such.

Part of it is principal. Why does a club owner think he can/should get free entertainment for his patrons???

Only because so many musicians over time have been beggars to be exploited.

I don't look to make money playing exactly. But unless the club owner is a personal friend that I would like to do a favor for, why would I allow myself to be used?

 

[Rocky]

Rocky, I gotta disagree with you. While it may seem that the playing for free hobbyist amateurs are stealing professional gigs, they really are not your competition if you are a real pro.

Well since there are usually ony so many places to play in a given area they are competition. Why would you as a club owner hire a band and pay xx amount of money to that band if you can get a band for free? I live in L.A. and unless you are a big name act you will more than likely not have a big following. Between the distances between gigs, and DUI laws many people do not drive around to see a local band. So most any band will be playing to the local crowd, and club owners know this. They hire whoever based on cost so If these "hobbyists" are playing for free they are stealing gigs.. period. Many times a bar will book these bands ONLY because they get them for free.

 

[MatticusMania]

Er - ever go watch a 45 yo Cat 5 bike racer?

Right, didn't think so.

You know watches the typical local bike race??

Wives, husbands, GF, BF, etc.
And....the other racers waiting for their start time.

Bottom line is racing at this level is not revenue generating for anyone, including the sponsoring club, etc.

There are sponsors who benefit - and they typically DO pay for that by supplying prize money, bonus prizes etc, and one can win something with a bit of risk, luck and talent. So some do "get paid".

Now, races that actually DO generate significant spectator interest tend to have professionals that DO get paid to race.

Hmm, sounds like your racing is much like my band - a niche market:

Er - ever go watch a 25-35y/o band go out and play a full set of improvised progressive rock?

Right, didn't think so.

You know who watches a band go out and play a full set of improvised progressive rock??

Wives, husbands, GF, BF, etc.
And....the other bands waiting for their start time.

Bottom line is improvised progressive rock is not revenue generating for anyone, including the sponsoring club, etc.

There are sponsors who benefit - and they typically DO pay for that by supplying prize money, bonus prizes etc, and one can win something with a bit of risk, luck and talent. So some do "get paid".

Now, bands that actually DO generate significant spectator interest tend to have professionals that DO get paid to play.

 

[JMacBass65]

Hmm, sounds like your racing is much like my band - a niche market:

Er - ever go watch a 25-35y/o band go out and play a full set of improvised progressive rock?

Right, didn't think so.

You know who watches a band go out and play a full set of improvised progressive rock??

Wives, husbands, GF, BF, etc.
And....the other bands waiting for their start time.

Bottom line is improvised progressive rock is not revenue generating for anyone, including the sponsoring club, etc.

There are sponsors who benefit - and they typically DO pay for that by supplying prize money, bonus prizes etc, and one can win something with a bit of risk, luck and talent. So some do "get paid".

Now, bands that actually DO generate significant spectator interest tend to have professionals that DO get paid to play.

Dude, that is one of the funniest things I have read in a while!

Well done.

 

[SactoBass]

Not if you're a registered member you didn't...

Good point!!!

 

[phillipkregg]

You can call a person who has a day job "selfish" for taking a gig away from a "professional" musician. But you have to wonder if the guy was so professional, why is he being replaced? The skills that make you professional at anything directly transfer over to music as well:

1) Courteousness - aka, getting along with everybody

2) Punctuality - professionals are dependable

3) Discipline - taking the time to know your stuff

There are a lot of extremely talented folks out there who are perfectly capable of being professional at both their work and their play.

 

[Rocky]

+1

Really, to me this seems like kind of a ridiculous argument. I was trying really hard to think about any gig we've played and not gotten some sort of compensation. Maybe things are just different here in the midwest, but I can't honestly think of a gig where we haven't been offered anything. Even if it's only free beer or some food, or something at the show, that's good enough for me.

That's not to say that I think the OP was wrong. If I were good enough to be hired out to play in other bands, I would expect some compensation too. There's always a big difference between musicians that depend on it for a living and those that don't. I know around here, in an original band at a club or bar, you usually get 3-4 free drinks per member, and a cut of the door. 9 times out of 10, the door doesn't pay worth a damn. We usually try to be generous too, if we're on a bill with an out of town band and the door doesn't give us hardly anything, then we usually try to pass that on to the traveling band so that they can at least recoup gas money.

Let me shed some light on this for you. Lets say we have two bands. Both bands are good. Band A wants to get paid $1000, and band B wants 750 for the night. Both bands draw equally since they are playing in a big city where there are literally hundreds of musicians. Which band do you think is going to get hired in this economy? Now along comes band C. They are not as good as either band A or B , but they are not bad, and they will do the gig for free. Unless band A or B has a big name that will draw a big crowd I guarantee band C will get the gig. Now in smaller towns some bands will develop a crowd and draw enogh that club owners will pay them what they want because they know that they will have a crowd, but in larger citys like L.A. its difficult for any band to bring a crowd with them. Most of the gigs i have played are 50-100 miles apart, and not many people are willing to drive that far to drink.

My original argument was pertaining more to being a hired gun. I think if you are asked to play your instrument, and you are playing in a place of business that benefits from your music then you should be payed. If you choose to play parties or whatever for free then thats your business, but in any situation that is making money off of your efforts why wouldn't you want a piece? Lots of musicians say they play for the love of the music so they don't care about the money, and so they will play for free. Well I play music because I love it too, but I'm not able to pay my bills with "love", and let me further say that as a flight Instructor with enough credentials to fly corporate jet or for an airline its not that money that keeps me onstage. I choose to be a professional musician because I love to play just as much as those who do it for free. All I'm saying is if you play for free in a place that makes money off of your services then you are not only being cheated, but you are providing a way for those that are ripping you off to avoid paying those that are trying to make a living playing music. Just remember not everyone that is a professional musician is a "rock star" or big name act, and those are the people you are screwing playing for free in this situation.

 

[Passinwind]

Let me shed some light on this for you. Lets say we have two bands. Both bands are good. Band A wants to get paid $1000, and band B wants 750 for the night. Both bands draw equally <snip>

Why does Band A get any gigs then? Isn't Band B screwing Band A by not also charging $1000?

 

[SactoBass]

You can call a person who has a day job "selfish" for taking a gig away from a "professional" musician. But you have to wonder if the guy was so professional, why is he being replaced? The skills that make you professional at anything directly transfer over to music as well:

1) Courteousness - aka, getting along with everybody

2) Punctuality - professionals are dependable

3) Discipline - taking the time to know your stuff

There are a lot of extremely talented folks out there who are perfectly capable of being professional at both their work and their play.

This is a well-worded post.

 

[Crazyeelboy]

Well since there are usually ony so many places to play in a given area they are competition. Why would you as a club owner hire a band and pay xx amount of money to that band if you can get a band for free? I live in L.A. and unless you are a big name act you will more than likely not have a big following. Between the distances between gigs, and DUI laws many people do not drive around to see a local band. So most any band will be playing to the local crowd, and club owners know this. They hire whoever based on cost so If these "hobbyists" are playing for free they are stealing gigs.. period. Many times a bar will book these bands ONLY because they get them for free.

Rocky - It is all about competition. If your competitors are a bunch of hobbyists playing for nothing, as a genuine pro, you ought to be able to blow these clowns away and bring some real value to the clubs by bringing in some fans or building the club's reputation for quality entertainment. If you cannot distinguish yourself from even this lowest level of competition, then your band has some work to do (either in its show, the music or the promotion).

By the way, I'd bet that if these club owners who don't want to pay bands found that no bands would play for free, they'd just stop having bands and bring in free DJs or just run the radio. At this level, the competition isn't really bands who will play for free, but whether the club will have a band at all. Club owners gain nothing from having empty houses even if the band plays for free.

 

[jive1]

I do love to play music, but I hate lugging gear around, dealing with band drama, and hustling to get gigs.

I'd play music for free, if that's all I had to do was just play what I want, when I want, how I want, with all the gear that I want at my disposal. Unfortunately, even the "free" bands don't get to do that often.

Marketing and promoting the band is work, I want to get paid.
Keeping up a website and other media like posters and photos is work, I want to get paid
Lugging gear is a pain in the arse, I want to get paid.
Setting up and maintaining a PA is a hassle, I want to get paid.
Dealing with club owners and managers is frustrating, I want to get paid.
Dealing with an egotistical guitarist, flaky drummer, diva keyboard player and clueless vocalist, I want to get paid.
Dealing with the cops, law enforcement, code regulation sucks, I want to get paid.

But I do love making music.

 

[MatticusMania]

Rocky - It is all about competition. If your competitors are a bunch of hobbyists playing for nothing, as a genuine pro, you ought to be able to blow these clowns away and bring some real value to the clubs by bringing in some fans or building the club's reputation for quality entertainment. If you cannot distinguish yourself from even this lowest level of competition, then your band has some work to do (either in its show, the music or the promotion).

I believe you've got it quite right. My band doesnt take any gigs away from the 'professional' bands in the area. We rarely even play at the same venues, and when we do its never on a weekend night. My band, appealing to a niche market, isnt getting gigs over the cover bands that can make $500 a night (or whatever there rate may be). We're playing in bars and pubs, who honestly, dont make much of anything from having us play there.

By the way, I'd bet that if these club owners who don't want to pay bands found that no bands would play for free, they'd just stop having bands and bring in free DJs or just run the [del]radio[/del] jukebox. At this level, the competition isn't really bands who will play for free, but whether the club will have a band at all. Club owners gain nothing from having empty houses even if the band plays for free.

indeed