Am I diva for not wanting to play for free?

[Tampabass]

True, more musicians than gigs.
But you could say the same thing about other types of workers, particularly in the current economy. There are more people wanting jobs as nightclub workers than there are jobs.
So how many of those nightclub workers do what they do for free, for the love of it?

The free market also works like this: If all bands stopped playing for free, then all clubs wanting live music would have to pay bands. And when people stopped going to the clubs that were too cheap to pay bands - because those clubs didn't offer music, while other clubs did offer music - then some of the cheapskate clubs would reconsider whether they should start paying bands, in order to stay competitive.

I know it seems that way, but it's not that simple; it really is the Free Market at work. If there were fewer musicians/groups than gigs, then the gigs would be bidding against each other for our services. That's not the case; there are far more musicians than there are gigs. When there is an oversupply of any commodity, the price drops.

I know that isn't what "working musicians" want to hear, but you can't drive up the price on an oversupplied market. It's part of a larger issue affecting all aspects of the music industry these days.

What "should be" and what "is" are frequently two different things. You must deal with the world in terms of what "is". Unfortunately, the way it "is" in some places, your choices frequently are to play for free or not play. It's why I quit the music business as a career and went back to school.

 

[Gard]

Folks, if you're playing for "the joy of making music" and not to be compensated, please STAY HOME - you don't need a venue to play for joy/fun/whatever.

If you are going to go play in a for-profit establishment - i.e. ANY PLACE THAT USES YOUR EFFORTS AS ENTERTAINMENT FOR THEIR CLIENTELE - you are due compensation for providing it.

Period.

Allowing yourself to be USED as entertainment by a for-profit establishment without compensation is a disservice to you and every other musician that has put forth the time and effort to become proficient on their respective instrument, and has made the investment to procure the instrument and attendant items to the playing of the instrument.

I don't make my living playing music, and haven't for years. However, I do expect to be compensated for the time I've put in and the investment I've made. You should also - your time and effort is just as valuable as anyone else's.

Playing for free in a for-profit establishment not only deprives you of just compensation, but it leads to others being abused by the operators of these places as well. It is, in essence, stabbing your fellow musician in the back.

Don't do it.

 

[Tampabass]

Precisely. I don't make my living playing music, either, but I am a semi-professional, serious about my playing, offering good music (IMO) to places willing to pay for it.

No way would I hurt the full-time pros by going around to for-profit venues and playing for nothing.

Folks, if you're playing for "the joy of making music" and not to be compensated, please STAY HOME - you don't need a venue to play for joy/fun/whatever.

If you are going to go play in a for-profit establishment - i.e. ANY PLACE THAT USES YOUR EFFORTS AS ENTERTAINMENT FOR THEIR CLIENTELE - you are due compensation for providing it.

Period.

Allowing yourself to be USED as entertainment by a for-profit establishment without compensation is a disservice to you and every other musician that has put forth the time and effort to become proficient on their respective instrument, and has made the investment to procure the instrument and attendant items to the playing of the instrument.

I don't make my living playing music, and haven't for years. However, I do expect to be compensated for the time I've put in and the investment I've made. You should also - your time and effort is just as valuable as anyone else's.

Playing for free in a for-profit establishment not only deprives you of just compensation, but it leads to others being abused by the operators of these places as well. It is, in essence, stabbing your fellow musician in the back.

Don't do it.

 

[SteveC]

Everyone's personal situation is different.

For me, I have a professional career (non-music related) where I already make plenty of money. So when it comes to playing bass, I could care less whether I get paid or not because I play music for the sheer joy of playing music.

I hear that. I respect that you play for joy. So do I. But I don't make plenty of money, so I wish even though you could care less, thatyou would try to help the rest of us by asking for close to the "going rate" to help us out.

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

Folks, if you're playing for "the joy of making music" and not to be compensated, please STAY HOME - you don't need a venue to play for joy/fun/whatever.

If you are going to go play in a for-profit establishment - i.e. ANY PLACE THAT USES YOUR EFFORTS AS ENTERTAINMENT FOR THEIR CLIENTELE - you are due compensation for providing it.

Period.

Allowing yourself to be USED as entertainment by a for-profit establishment without compensation is a disservice to you and every other musician that has put forth the time and effort to become proficient on their respective instrument, and has made the investment to procure the instrument and attendant items to the playing of the instrument.

I don't make my living playing music, and haven't for years. However, I do expect to be compensated for the time I've put in and the investment I've made. You should also - your time and effort is just as valuable as anyone else's.

Playing for free in a for-profit establishment not only deprives you of just compensation, but it leads to others being abused by the operators of these places as well. It is, in essence, stabbing your fellow musician in the back.

Don't do it.

I disagree. I am happy to play for free (or for gas money) if the music is good, the audience is engaged, and there is some goals involved with the band (bigger venues, recording, etc). It's fun and it is *my right* to do it. If you think less of me for it, that's on you, not me. And yes, I know you're not alone. I've been berated by "professionals" who insist that I, as a pretty good player, am making it harder for "real" musicians to make a living. This strikes me as a "union" mentality that I just don't buy.

But like I said - I'm not play for free if some CW or "Classic Rock" band wants me to sub or even gig regularly - that music is nothing but "work" to me, and I want to be paid for work. Joy? I don't need money for that. But I do need an audience.

 

[BananaKing]

I've done paid gigs and free gigs, but, with my music, it isn't exactly dance music, so people don't tend to come to dance (Which can limit liquor sales). Plus, in both my bands, we're all equals: Everyone gets paid, or no one does. I don't have a problem playing the odd show for free with these guys, but we usually get a portion of the door, which is cool since we have decent pull when we want to and pretty loyal fans.

 

[Gard]

I disagree. I am happy to play for free (or for gas money) if the music is good, the audience is engaged, and there is some goals involved with the band (bigger venues, recording, etc). It's fun and it is *my right* to do it. If you think less of me for it, that's on you, not me. And yes, I know you're not alone. I've been berated by "professionals" who insist that I, as a pretty good player, am making it harder for "real" musicians to make a living. This strikes me as a "union" mentality that I just don't buy.

But like I said - I'm not play for free if some CW or "Classic Rock" band wants me to sub or even gig regularly - that music is nothing but "work" to me, and I want to be paid for work. Joy? I don't need money for that. But I do need an audience.

So, let me get this straight:

You're OK with the club you just spent 4 hours playing in - after rehearsing for months with the band, and spending years practicing your skills to be good enough to get the gig with the band, and busting your hump for years to be able to afford decent gear to use in this effort - making money on people coming to watch you play, but not passing some of that profit along to you?

This isn't "union", this is basic economics! If you go to a club and play ANY music - whether it is stuff you despise, or stuff that is your heart and soul - and they profit from it, do you not deserve compensation for the time, effort, and investment you have made?

So, which are you, a slut or a ho?

I'll take the ho part myself.

Ho fo da do' (dough or door, either works! )! And proud of it too!

 

[BillyIVbass]

If you wear the same outfit more than once, and own less than 10 000 pairs of shoes... you're probably not a diva.

phew! I guess I'm alright. I think I own sneakers and a not so beat up pair of sneakers.

 

[SactoBass]

I disagree. I am happy to play for free (or for gas money) if the music is good, the audience is engaged, and there is some goals involved with the band (bigger venues, recording, etc). It's fun and it is *my right* to do it. If you think less of me for it, that's on you, not me. And yes, I know you're not alone. I've been berated by "professionals" who insist that I, as a pretty good player, am making it harder for "real" musicians to make a living. This strikes me as a "union" mentality that I just don't buy.

But like I said - I'm not play for free if some CW or "Classic Rock" band wants me to sub or even gig regularly - that music is nothing but "work" to me, and I want to be paid for work. Joy? I don't need money for that. But I do need an audience.

Well put!

And you made a good point about "having" to play music that you don't really care to play, in which case you would insist on compensation since it provides less (or zero) joy.

For me, music has always been just a hobby (one that I dearly love), i.e., I have never relied on it for income. I can see how those who rely on music for income would promote a different opinion, which I wholeheartedly respect. What I do not agree with is someone telling someone else what to do or not to do. Nobody has the right to do that (although some have a propensity to "assume" the right all too often).

I say, everyone should just do what they want to do. Imagine that!

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

So, let me get this straight:

You're OK with the club you just spent 4 hours playing in - after rehearsing for months with the band, and spending years practicing your skills to be good enough to get the gig with the band, and busting your hump for years to be able to afford decent gear to use in this effort - making money on people coming to watch you play, but not passing some of that profit along to you?

This isn't "union", this is basic economics! If you go to a club and play ANY music - whether it is stuff you despise, or stuff that is your heart and soul - and they profit from it, do you not deserve compensation for the time, effort, and investment you have made?

So, which are you, a slut or a ho?

I'll take the ho part myself.

Ho fo da do' (dough or door, either works! )! And proud of it too!

You are entitled to your opinion.

I guess I'm lucky enough to have a decent day job - I haven't tried to rely on gig money for anything more than post-gig beers and gas for many years, so I broke the connection between paying and playing a long time ago. Sure, it'd be nice if clubs would pay bands to play music that didn't suck... but they don't. So it goes.

 

[Eric Perry]

In my last band, I was making at least $200 myself for the night. That went up somewhat if there was excessive travel involved, and went up 3-4 times as much for "special" gigs (NYE, annual St. Patrick's Day full day gig, annual Cinco De Mayo full day gig, etc.). I left that band to move to Denver. I am now back in Scranton. Not only will I refuse to play for free, I've refused several gigs offering HALF of what I was making. As far as I care, that last band established my worth for almost three years straight. I'm not taking a pay cut unless there are some FANTASTIC fringe benefits!

Like Gard said, if that makes me a diva, then I'm one hell of a diva.

 

[Ric5]

The only "free" gig that I will do is summer parties. But I get a lot of free food and free drinks

 

[electracoyote]

It's really your call, use common sense and I always advocate being a team player when it's reasonable to do so.

Once you feel you've paid your "play for free" dues, if it's not a good charitable or networking opportunity, most times you're right to pass.

In a committed band scenario, being the lone diva hold out has its risks. When the rest of the band sees something as an opportunity where only you see it as a PITA and waste of time, that can invite conflict. One of my bands is considering replacing a guitar player over that attitude.

Use your head.

 

[SactoBass]

So, let me get this straight:

You're OK with the club you just spent 4 hours playing in - after rehearsing for months with the band, and spending years practicing your skills to be good enough to get the gig with the band, and busting your hump for years to be able to afford decent gear to use in this effort - making money on people coming to watch you play, but not passing some of that profit along to you?

YEP! I'm perfectly OK with that. Always have been, always will be. As long as I am having fun doing it! For me, that's why I play.....because I dig it!

 

[notdavey]

Pay is your choice, but if you are told you are going to be paid and then the situation changes to an unpaid gig, well then I would bail. I have guys in my band that travel to the gigs and always try to get a guarantee. When we are trying a new venue or it's a % deal or door deal with no gaurantee I understand when some of my horn players have to take another gig that is paying better on that same date etc.

 

[ggunn]

Folks, if you're playing for "the joy of making music" and not to be compensated, please STAY HOME - you don't need a venue to play for joy/fun/whatever.

[...]

Don't do it.

Sorry, I'm not going to do that. Not going to happen. I am going to play (or not play) for my own reasons. They may or may not involve compensation. If my playing for free drives down the price of music on the street, then so be it.

 

[SteveC]

Sounds like some of you are playing for free just to be pricks. I'm with Gard and others, it's not union, it's just watching out for other musicians. I don't necessarily rely on it for bills, but with 2 kids it all helps. I am a "professional" player. I went to school, received a degree, incurred expenses, just like many other professionals who choose to be compensated for their time, education and expertise. I doubt many doctors, dentists, sheet rock installers, plumbes, etc. will work for beer. Thanks for your support.

 

[atheos]

I don't have the time to play for free without a very, very good reason. Time is money, though also money is money; playing a gig usually always causes some expenses so getting those expenses covered is the bare minimum. If it's a fun gig (luckily most are). Charity gigs, yes, although expenses covered would still be nice. And only for the right cause.

Then there are the once-in-a-lifetime opportunities, they're mostly OK, as well as gigs with great promotional value. Just learn to spot the difference between "great promotional value" and "bad deal".

 

[Tampabass]

For-profit clubs or other venues that ask bands to play for free ... generally get something that's worth what they paid.

 

[AMJBASS]

The more that musicians/bands play for free, the more that club-owners and others will expect musicians and bands to play for free.

Playing free, particularly at places where other workers (bartenders, servers, doormen, owner, dishwashers, guys taking out the trash) are making money, simply devalues what musicians do, and makes it hard for other musicians to make a living playing music.

Whether you're doing it because you love it is sort of irrelevant - of course you're playing bass because you love it. Getting paid for your services and the value you add to that venue is the point.

Absolutely. Not only do bands who play for free make it difficult, but bands who undercut others to get a gig. Of course you get what you pay for...