Am I diva for not wanting to play for free?

[SactoBass]

Just out of curiosity, what do you do for a living?

Well, I will only answer that since you asked...

I am a licensed professional civil engineer in the State of California, and I have been working as a civil engineer for the past 30 years. I currently manage a group of civil engineers. I am fortunate to have a secure, stable career with a six figure income which affords me the freedom to enjoy hobbies (like playing bass in a band) without having to worry about whether or not I get paid. But back when I was working my way through college, I was practically broke every day (like many students), so back then making an extra $50 went a long way! So I fully respect those who say they insist on being compensated to play. All of us have different financial situations which is why there are so many differing opinions in this thread regarding getting paid or not getting paid to play. For me, the few bucks involved is just not worth worrying about. So I just play for the fun of it, and that works for me.

 

[totallyfrozen]

OP,
Dude, it doesn't matter what anyone else gets paid or doesn't get paid. If you are treating gigging like your job, then it's your job. If you want to be paid and don't want to play for free, then you are not wrong for requiring that. Honestly, I think you did the right thing and I wouldn't have any doubts or second thoughts about it if I were you.

It's one of the biggest problems with the art of music. So many millions of people want to play music that the market is just oversaturated with desperate musicians. As long as there are desperate wannabes willing to gig for nothing, then there will be people expecting you play for nothing. It's been this way since the 80's (maybe earlier). This is one reason why music should just be a hobby for most of us. There are already too many people trying to force their way into a career in music performance. The value of musicians has dropped. It's this way everywhere. The only cure is fewer musicans...and I don't see that every happening.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Well, I will only answer that since you asked...

I am a licensed professional civil engineer in the State of California, and I have been working as a civil engineer for the past 30 years. I currently manage a group of civil engineers. I am fortunate to have a secure, stable career with a six figure income which affords me the freedom to enjoy hobbies (like playing bass in a band) without having to worry about whether or not I get paid. But back when I was working my way through college, I was practically broke every day (like many students), so back then making an extra $50 went a long way! So I fully respect those who say they insist on being compensated to play. All of us have different financial situations which is why there are so many differing opinions in this thread regarding getting paid or not getting paid to play. For me, the few bucks involved is just not worth worrying about. So I just play for the fun of it, and that works for me.

I had a guy duck me for a couple of years, not paying for some gear I fronted him (being a nice guy... again). When I finally cornered him, at a wedding (like I gave a damn) he actually told me the reason he hadn't paid me was because he didn't think I needed the money.

Whether or not I needed the money was not the point. IMO of course.

Because I've accumulated a lot of mostly high end gear, I have people who actually think I'm rich. They can't think deeply enough to understand that you don't have to be rich to acquire things (and yes, everything I own is free and clear and has been that way for decades). The guy who stiffed me the $200 made that same comment. And while I'd like to say the following:

"I'm not rich... I'm just not as frivolous with money as you".

I refrain.

 

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Well, here's my problem with this attitude, and I'm talking cover bands here, not original showcases- there are lots and lots of rather good weekend warriors out there, with money to buy nice gear, PA equipment, light shows, etc. They may not be as good as my band, but if they are "good enough," well, there goes my paycheck. Around here, clubs hire less-than-stellar weekend warrior bands for cheap, because the club has a built-in crowd. As long as the band doesn't actually drive everyone screaming from the club, they are deemed "good enough." So I should give up? Just quit? Hmmm......

I don't know, you tell me? I'm certainly not going to stop playing for free when I enjoy doing it, even if that makes me a prick in the eyes of the so-called pro's. And I do (nearly 100%) play original music, but if someone wants to do covers for free, let them as far as I'm concerned. I always found the concept of people complaining about pay when all they play is covers, being pretty fun.

Regarding your next point, music is unique in that it's one of a very few things that are: 1) lots of fun and: 2) you can get paid to do it. Hobby? Not very many people get paid to windsurf or fly model airplanes. On the other hand, few people will shingle your roof or mow your lawn for free. But if they did, roofers and landscapers would be in trouble. Because of this, IMO, performing music treads a fine line between things that should be considered hobby's vs. careers or jobs. IMO.

As you said you can get paid to do, I'd be happy getting a bit extra in pocket, but it makes no difference to me. That's what my regular work is for. Again, way I see it, if you are trying to make a career from music, you need to do something to make you a clear step above the weekend warriors.

 

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Well, I will only answer that since you asked...

I am a licensed professional civil engineer in the State of California, and I have been working as a civil engineer for the past 30 years. I currently manage a group of civil engineers. I am fortunate to have a secure, stable career with a six figure income which affords me the freedom to enjoy hobbies (like playing bass in a band) without having to worry about whether or not I get paid. But back when I was working my way through college, I was practically broke every day (like many students), so back then making an extra $50 went a long way! So I fully respect those who say they insist on being compensated to play. All of us have different financial situations which is why there are so many differing opinions in this thread regarding getting paid or not getting paid to play. For me, the few bucks involved is just not worth worrying about. So I just play for the fun of it, and that works for me.

That's the way I see it, every individual situation is different. I just detest the idea that people who play for free "aren't as good" or are just sticking it to the 'professional' musicians.

Whether or not I needed the money was not the point. IMO of course.

Too right, it's like having someone want to buy something from you, then not pay you because, you know, you already have enough anyway. If an agreement is made it has to be stuck to, regardless of how 'petty' it may seem in the eyes of one party.

 

[cnltb]

Little background. I'm in my 20s, in my teens I played any gig I could get. Lets say 8 yearsish of non-stop gigging. I have pro-gear and will take the time to learn your songs.

All I ask is minimum you pay for my travel costs (couple bucks for gas and a gourmet meal at a fast food joint) So sure I'll come out for $20 rather than sit at home on my duff.

My friends give me endless hell for this. I don't have much of a day job, I'm building decent contacts and I have plenty of free time to practice on my own.

I've been emailing back and forth about filling in for a show that I can tell there's going to be no people at, 3+ practices and I'll need to lug amps. Today I find out "yeah I can't pay you anything" so I said "Sorry man, I'm not going to take a hit for your gig" I thought I was nice, now this guy is getting snooty.

Am I a jerk or am I just watching my own back? I'm interested to hear how some of you got started and your personal rules on what gigs to take and what ones to not.

I completely see your position and wouldn't do it any other way.
I'd rather say no to an unpaid gig at the outset than pulling out later on when/if a paid one comes along-I do sometimes say yes to unpaid ones but warn beforehand that if a paid gig comes along I'll have to do that one.
From thereon it's up to whoever asks me to work with them.

And-you ask for what you think you are worth(as said before) and you working for free may make it harder for those that depend on music to make the rent.

 

[phatbass]

When you play for nothing, you're telling people that's what you're worth.

^^^ This.

As others have said, if it's a GENUINE charity/benefit gig, I'll make an exception.

 

[Rico_2212]

Ok. I'm a 45 year old playing original music (Death Metal) and there are very few places to play. I realized over 15 years ago that I probably won't hit it big. The bands in this scene usually play for the door. Normally with 3-4 bands it's usually 2-3 known and at least 1 new band. Alot of times the new band will play for free and the rest divide the door. We don't write and rehearse just to stay in the practice room and any money goes right back into the band (recording, etc.) The places that will have us are usually "hole-in-the-wall" dive bars and youth centers. We are not making money, nor are we taking gigs away from anybody. These bars can barely keep their doors open and in this economy we're lucky that there's any place at all to showcase new material. The OP is not a Diva for wanting to be payed, but I'm not a prick for wanting my music heard. I refuse to give up an audience just because someone thinks they have more right to play than I do. I've payed my dues, went to college, and played everything from backyard parties in Joliet, Il. to the military club circuit in Germany. If you think I'm taking your gigs away, stop crying, grow up and work harder to hustle gigs. If you can't support yourself with music, don't whine to me. Do like so many of the rest of us did. Get a day job. Peace.

 

[pltnny]

Billy- Stick to your guns on this...you practice hard, this is what you do, it should not be for free (except maybe family events). I'm a teacher and people are always expecting me to tutor their kids for free... hey, this is my profession. I worked hard to get the knowledge base I have, so I need to be paid for my services, just as you do.

 

[tycobb73]

The more that musicians/bands play for free, the more that club-owners and others will expect musicians and bands to play for free.
QUOTE]

This screws guys like me. My 9-5 is gigging / touring.

My office is my bass, my boss is my bass, my career is my bass, my vacation is my bass. Asking me to play for free is asking non career muso's to do their job for free. Nothing less.

Play for fun? I did that at 17.

As an accounting consultant I took on someone's work for free. In my circle of professionals I know lawyers, operations consultants, and doctors that work for free. Musicians who think that nonworking musicians don't do work for free are clueless about the business world and scrwing themselves over because of it.

 

[ggunn]

And you too- what's your job?

What difference does it make? I meet my expenses by doing something other than playing music.

 

[Eric Perry]

...Whether or not I needed the money was not the point. IMO of course...

That should be IEO! If you borrow money, you give it back whether the lender "needs" it or not. It's amazing to me that some people don't get that.

 

[ggunn]

Because there are so many musicians in Austin that will play for free clubs can get away with not paying you. That is what I meant. Are you playing original music in a showcase type of gig? If you are then I understand what you are saying, and by all means you should do whatever you feel that will get you the exposure you think will advance your band. I have been there, and I have done that too. My position referrers more to bands that play four sets a night doing cover tunes in a bar or fills in for another bassist. I personally don't believe that anyone should play in that situation for free, but there are plenty that will do that too. I have stated my position on this issue time and time again. We can agree to disagree, and leave it at that. I will never play for free unless it is a benefit that I believe in. I have been signed twice in my life with all kinds of promises offered. I have played in numerous bar bands doing four sets a night to make a living. Am I jaded? absolutely! I still love music, and I love to play, but my days of driving to gigs and playing all night for free are long gone. I would rather stay home than to be used by cheap club owners. The irony of all this is that as soon as I stopped playing for free, and demanded what I felt to be adequate pay for playing gigs, the less I got asked to play for free, and the more paying gigs I get. However, I do realize that playing gigs for free has affected the business, and that is all I was really trying to point out.

As a matter of fact (and as I have said several times), yes, I am in an original band. We play where and when we can to get our music in front of people. It's not always for free, but it's seldom for much.

But that's not where we disagree. Where we differ is on the point of any of us telling the rest what we should or should not do in this regard. We each have our own individual set of motivations for playing, and for many folks, money is not one of them. If someone wants to beat themselves to a bloody pulp playing Led Zeppelin covers for six hours for free, and that is how they get off musically, then (as we used to say back in the dark ages) that's their trip.

Even if you could somehow get all the musicians in the world to agree to stop playing for a pittance (good luck with that one), I am not at all sure that it would singularly raise the wages of all "working" musicians. The Law of Unintended Consequences is always lurking in the shadows. One effect that I am pretty sure it would have is that many musicians who can play out now wouldn't be able to. That's good for some, bad for others.

But that's Fantasy Island thinking anyway. We have to deal with the world as it is, not how we would like for it to be for our own "selfish" reasons.

 

[calebbarton]

This. I wouldnt say youre a jerk. Actually I think $20 is an extremely reasonable rate to have you play a show.

yeah i agree, especially if you are filling in for someone and need to learn a bunch of songs. Mans gotta eat!

 

[Billy Low]

Those are reasonable exceptions. I'd keep an eye on the close friends though... sometimes they're the first people who try to play you for a chump IMO.

On the charity tip, many people don't realize that peoiple get paid at charity events too. If you want to donate your pay that's one thing. I've known people who got their "band" to play for free while getting paid themself.

Brad, it has been my humble opinion that your real friends will always wanna put a few bucks in your pocket before anyone else will, even when theirs are short. It's at your discretion whether or not to refuse their offer.

 

[TRichardsbass]

The argument here has gone way off post, but I'm gonna chime in again.

As far as playing for free vice playing for pay, all of us should try to get something for every gig we play. That shows we have a value, and also helps those who do this full time for their livelyhood.

Having said that, the argument the OP was making was more of a reneg on a deal at the last minute. No one, professional or otherwise, should ever roll over and play dead when someone does this to them. If you are asked to fill in, and they tell you they will pay you something, then they should pay you. If they change the rules last minute, then you have the right to change the rules too.

The big lesson in all of this is, if you are asked to play or fill in, negotiate and agree on your price up front. Don't leave any details out. You don't necessarily need a contract, but send the people an email summarizing what you agreed upon. Let them know that if they change the agreement, then you can walk, even immediately before the set. Also, make sure that they either pay you upfront or before you start playing. If they can't do that, then don't play. I know you are in your 20's, but its time to act like a pro.

If you agree to play for free, make sure that is in an email as well.

As for the rest of us out there, there is plenty of at least union scale work out there for studios and productions. If you are as one poster put it here in the three points, PROFESSIONAL in your demeanor and your conduct, the work will come, and also will come at higher and higher rates of pay. I am primarily an original artist, former label signed, and I get calls all the time from cover bands asking me for help. Because I am professional in all that I do.

(Quick side note, I recently did a fill in job and got paid $150 for the night. The keyboard player, who was a founding member of his band but didn't handle the biz end, was pissed at me because he only got $70 for the same gig. He actually asked me to give money back. I reminded him that they called me.)

 

[electracoyote]

I would play for free at a benefit for a charity that I support and believe in, but I would certainly not play for free at a regular club gig or similar, and definitely not as a fill-in.

+1 on the charity gig scenario

-1 on everything else

You are completely discounting the networking and showcasing value to playing certain venues for little to no pay.

This may not apply to everyone on this thread, and for those who are above it, more power to you, no need to post a snarky response. But for my band (and the bands of other TB'ers I'm sure), in my town, there are several stages that have huge showcasing potential. Being an opener, playing in front of real club patrons, real booking agents and other heavy hitters, has serious promotional value that is hard to even put a dollar amount on.

Like I said, if you have moved past this stage, that's awesome, but we shouldn't deny the truth of the value of showcasing your talent when you're trying to advance.

And I wouldn't make a habit of it, or you will get the reputation as the "freebie wannabe" band, and club owners will just keep raping you. My band only does this a few times each year. If the club doesn't come up with some cash soon, we stop accepting invitations.

It has worked to our favor more than once, where, after a freebie, a desirable club called us back in and paid us for our time, or a string-puller in the audience later looked us up and set a juicy money gig in our lap.

 

[cnltb]

(Quick side note, I recently did a fill in job and got paid $150 for the night. The keyboard player, who was a founding member of his band but didn't handle the biz end, was pissed at me because he only got $70 for the same gig. He actually asked me to give money back. I reminded him that they called me.)

I had something like that happen once.
All I said was that I negotiated my terms , not his.(the guy who had a problem with what I got paid)

 

[Tampabass]

Showcase/exposure gigs can SOMETIMES pay off, but in far too many cases those are just another excuse for some promoter - who is making money - to get bands to play for free.

Because in most of these situations there's little to no guarantee that there will be ANYONE in the audience who is likely or able to follow up with a gig offer.

And you can't eat exposure.

 

[bassandbeyond]

I play for a living, and I generally don't like to play for free, but I'm not as strict in that attitude as I used to be. The recent devaluation of music simply comes down to supply and demand, and the balance is really out of whack these days.

So IMO there's no point in complaining about it. That's just the way things are. It's interesting to note, however, that 50 or 60 years ago, it was much easier to get paid a decent wage for performing. And even then there was lots of competition among musicians.