American Dream or Great Depression?

[steamthief]

what's even more effedup is that most of the corn produced is inedible. it's used for the production of high fructose corn syrup. :scowl:

And we all know what a blessing that is to the general health of our populace!

The thing that bothers me about ethanol is that demand for corn goes up, so more corn gets planted at the expense of wheat and other grains, which drives up the price of food.

Ethanol is less efficient than gasoline in energy content, so vehicle fleet m.p.g. suffers with use of E85 and other ethanol based fuels.

We could easily import sugar-based ethanol from Brazil, which has much more energy compared with corn-based ethanol, but it is an election year, after all.

 

[Spoiled Grape]

The U.S. can't lower the tariff on sugar prices or import anything sugar related unless they somehow manage to focus the U.S. farming industry on something else besides stupid corn. Waaaaaaaay too much of our land is being used to raise corn to make a syrup that is literally giving the "obesity gene" to our entire nation.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I must say this has become an interesting thread for me and that I have heard about stuff that we don't normally get here - either on the News or on American TV shows I see each week.

So it seems there are two versions of the US - the one we see in TV shows and movies that often embody "the American Dream"....?

And then there is the reality of making ends meet and constant struggle...plus a strange kind of bureaucracy...?

So I read the link that Maki gave about food stamps and it made zero sense to me - half the terms were meaningless and the main idea seemed to be contradictory - so it seemed to say something like you can't qualify if you have children under 18 and then went on to give levels of income for 1-10 children...reminded me of Catch 22!!!

 

[budman]

The unemployment rate in the US is at 4.8%. The unemployment rate in the UK is at 5.2% at the moment. Just like child benefits in the UK food stamps aren't hard to get if you want them.

 

[ModulusFan]

any skilled construction/manufacturing job requires little school and pays big.

Shenanigans. Not what there are people fighting for the work in a declining economy, and having to compete with illegals who don't pay taxes, and have 14 people living per home.

My former trade pays less now than it did when I entered the trade in 1995. It got to a point, where they can just have it. Major metro areas are MUCH worse than my own case.

 

[ModulusFan]

Speaking of the "american dream", I just got into that race yesterday entering into a purchase agreement on a house.

A low-to mid 700's fico still cost me $23,000 down on a 115k home which is fairly middle class in this area. Who has that kind of money? I saved most of it, but a dip into 401k to cover a portion had to cover what was unexpectedly 20% down which will push my closing back until beginning of may most likely. Granted this is a limited doc loan due to being self employed, but six months ago this would have been a zero down sign and drive deal.

The housing market is in a giant mess as it is, and I understand why the lending restrictions are stiff due to irresponsible borrowers in the past, but I don't see this helping matters.

 

[WRBass]

My theory is that since it's an election year, there will be alot of fear mongering going on. The economy is shambles, but our candidate can solve that.

Economy's go in cycles. In the 80s, there were double digit interest rates, yet the housing and lending market didn't completely collapse. I graduated from college into an economic recession and within 2-3 years I had more job offers than I knew what to do with. There were guys who went from rags to riches and back to rags from that tech-bubble era but there's alot of us that still have jobs and managed to buy houses in time for the housing boom. And who knows what will come next.

The US economy is very diversified, and because of that our average recession is 11 months long while periods of expansion are an average of 6 years. So looking at the last decade or so, there was a market boom led by tech that lasted about 5 years and then bursted into a recession that lasted about a year. Then there was a housing boom that lasted for about 5 years, and now we're seeing the bubble on that burst. So it's inevitable that the US will have a recession. It's how economic cycles work.

Don't let the fear mongerers make you stop working and investing during a down time, and don't get too caught up in the frenzy of a boom. It's those that keep a level head during either time that make it through.

++++1

Over the last 5 years, the S&P, the DOW, and the NASDAQ are all up over 30%. The stock market is OK. We have not had a single quarter of non GDP growth. It takes 2 quarters to qualify as a recession. February's unemployment rate was 4.8%.

It's election year. Don't believe the media! Sure, gasoline prices are high. But don't forget who makes the most profit on gas. Your state and federal goverments. (over $.40 a gallon.)

 

[Marlat]

Well I lived thru the late 70's and early 80's where we had 8% unemployment, 10% inflation, Gas rationing, and 15% interest rates.

Its worth noting that if real interest rates are greater than inflation, its probably not that bigger deal. The issue is when interest rates are lower than inflation. For example, if the interest rates were 2% and inflation was 3%. Then it would be a problem.

If what where experiencing now is a recession (it's not, the economy is STILL growing just not as fast "as expected")

You won't know if the economy is still growing "right now" until about 6-12 months from now. It may well be that you are in a recession now and just don't know it yet (or that you are not in a recession). IIRC the last recession in the USA was announced in the week when, in hindsight, the US started coming out of that recession.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

The unemployment rate in the US is at 4.8%.

Unemployment rate up in 46 US states in Dec-gov't
Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:27pm GMT

WASHINGTON, Jan 18 (Reuters) - Michigan again recorded the highest unemployment rate in December, followed by Mississippi, but almost all states saw a spike in the measure, the Labor Department said Friday.

This is the ninth month in a row the Midwestern state posted the highest rate, which rose to 7.6 percent from 7.4 percent in November. Mississippi's rate was 6.8 percent, up from November's 6.3 percent. For the last year, the two states have had the topmost rates.

The rest of the country was not immune to job loss, as 46 states and the District of Columbia said their rates increased in December. Close to 20 states recorded rates higher than the national 5.0 percent, itself the greatest in two years.

At the same time, the number of jobs increased in 33 states and the District of Columbia in December, the department said, and decreased in 17.

Kansas lost the most jobs, 6,200, followed by South Carolina, 5,800.

While Texas and California experienced the largest gains, at 18,600 and 15,500 jobs respectively, the department noted three states -- Washington, Nebraska and Hawaii -- also saw "statistically significant" increases in payrolls.

Worried about a recession, some federal legislators have proposed providing more unemployment assistance to goose the economy. Others are weighing giving aid to the states.

Ray Scheppach, executive director of the National Governors Association, has said job losses can hurt states twice. First, they lose income tax revenue and then they must increase spending on unemployment benefits.

 

[budman]

Unemployment rate up in 46 US states in Dec-gov't
Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:27pm GMT

...

...Close to 20 states recorded rates higher than the national 5.0 percent, itself the greatest in two years....

Says 4.8% here: Invalid Link Removed

 

[jomahu]

The U.S. can't lower the tariff on sugar prices or import anything sugar related unless they somehow manage to focus the U.S. farming industry on something else besides stupid corn. Waaaaaaaay too much of our land is being used to raise corn to make a syrup that is literally giving the "obesity gene" to our entire nation.

+1 and why is hemp cultivation illegal again?
watched 'king corn' a few months ago, and couldn't help thinking that if only those cornfields were planted with hemp, it could prolly help to solve a lot of problems...

 

[jwbassman]

+1 and why is hemp cultivation illegal again?
watched 'king corn' a few months ago, and couldn't help thinking that if only those cornfields were planted with hemp, it could prolly help to solve a lot of problems...

+1

Hemp may be a good alternative

Check this out:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Pretty cool.

 

[MakiSupaStar]

I must say this has become an interesting thread for me and that I have heard about stuff that we don't normally get here - either on the News or on American TV shows I see each week.

So it seems there are two versions of the US - the one we see in TV shows and movies that often embody "the American Dream"....?

And then there is the reality of making ends meet and constant struggle...plus a strange kind of bureaucracy...?

So I read the link that Maki gave about food stamps and it made zero sense to me - half the terms were meaningless and the main idea seemed to be contradictory - so it seemed to say something like you can't qualify if you have children under 18 and then went on to give levels of income for 1-10 children...reminded me of Catch 22!!!

The logic of it was very Brazil-esque. I couldn't figure it out either.

 

[Chriss62]

We here in the US just need to walk more. It saves gas, it's exercise, it's good for the brain, gives you time to think and make better decisions.

That's what i'm doing to save my cash (instead of literally burning it on gasoline).

But I guess people can't walk everywhere, so............soilent green? It's people, ya know.

=)

 

[txbasschik]

+1 and why is hemp cultivation illegal again?
watched 'king corn' a few months ago, and couldn't help thinking that if only those cornfields were planted with hemp, it could prolly help to solve a lot of problems...

When I drive back "down-home" to S. Texas, I just about can't help but cry. Millions of acres...miles and miles and miles and miles...hundreds of miles in all directions...of NOTHING BUT CORN. And all the fields have a sign on the fences, at regular intervals..."Monsanto"..."Dow"...etc. All the fields are owned by chemical companies. ***ALL of them!!!***

It disgusts me. That area used to be beautiful coastal plain grassland, supporting ranches and diverse farms. Now? Total, utter monoculture. Corn, corn, freakin' corn, and we can't even eat it.

Bastages.

Cherie

 

[txbasschik]

We here in the US just need to walk more. It saves gas, it's exercise, it's good for the brain, gives you time to think and make better decisions.

That's what i'm doing to save my cash (instead of literally burning it on gasoline).

But I guess people can't walk everywhere, so............soilent green? It's people, ya know.

=)

Many places in Austin-proper are good places to walk and get things done. Walk to the store, the pharmacy, the post office, the taco shack.

But in the suburbs, and the semi-rural areas like where we are, you can't walk to the store, etc. They're all miles away. Our post office is ten miles from the house, and the grocery is six miles.

So...I walk for exercise now, instead of driving 12 miles to the nearest gym. Everything else, I have to drive there. They won't let you tie up a horse at the HEB, and if I try to ride a bike on those roads, man, I'll get killed.

Cherie

 

[txbasschik]

I'm with Cherie. If you can't afford it - save 'til you can. Cash gives you way more bargaining power when haggling anyway.

I have a couple of credit cards I use for convenience sake. Pay 'em off every monthh. The credit card companies call me a deadbeat!

I'm srry that a lot of ppl bought houses that were way beyond their financial reach. It shouldn't have been possible with proper rules for the lending agencies. Even so, those buyers signed on the dotted line and, although I feel for them, they made some bad decisions.

When talking about ppl who need a little help via food stamps or unemployment, I don't mind helping out. I'm all for hand ups, not handouts. What gets me is that corporations get massive tax breaks and move offshore to gain further tax evasions. They should pay their fair share as well.

I'm not anti-corporate or anti-rich (hell the rich pay almost 70% of the tax, down from 85% in the 90s), but I think everyone should put their fair share in the pot.

Oh, I'm SO with you on those corporate tax breaks! These companies get soooo many tax breaks, and then when things get a bit down, they dump employees and relocate somewhere they can get better tax breaks.

Makes me sick.

Cherie

 

[txbasschik]

I think I must have married your sister Cherie!

I agree 100%. Living within one's means isn't all that glamorous, but it sure is nice to be able to buy food and bass strings when you need em!

Hey, you found my long-lost sister!!!

We don't have a fancy home...we have a trailer on a nice piece of land we can afford if we reduce costs elsewhere. We don't take fancy vacations...we go to the Texas Gulf Coast, or visit a nearby city, or go to Schlitterbahn. No Vegas, no Hawaii, no Disney World. We buy many things used. No Keeping Up Appearances here.

I see these people who spend beaucoup bucks on big McMansions and all the "stuff" and the car every year, and I *know* they don't make *that* much, and they're doing it all on credit, getting "in" deeper and deeper. They work themselves right into the ground to pay for it all, and they never can quite get it paid for. They're all gonna die owing. Its sad, really. I'm happy without all that stuff. I don't understand that "live and look like you're rich" mentality.

There does seem to be a cultural thing that says if you don't do/buy/have all that stuff, that you're a loser or a lazy slacker. Nonsense!!! But I think that's what is driving some of these folks.

Cherie

 

[txbasschik]

I think that we're in for a tough time ahead in the US. The effect of the rising fuels costs are just now starting to trickle down into everything. Hence the high food costs. Which effects the poor the most. The fact of the matter is that everyone has to eat and that hits the ones with the least amount of money the most. You can cut out a lot of luxuries, but you can't cut out food.

I don't know if we will hit "great depression" status, but the economy is definately in a slow down. The stock market is in a period of adjustment, the fed is slashing rates, which will eventually help to put the US dollar decline in check. American's will see inflation, but we'll also see our products start to become more competitive on the global market, which in turn will help with the trade deficit.

But short term Americans will need to tighten the belt on spending.

On the brighter side of things, the current market yields the potential for great buying opportunities. So now is the time for long term investors to buy.

+1,000.

Speaking of rising fuel costs...

We all know that the oil companies receive beaucoup subsidies/tax breaks, and their profist for '07 were around 18 billion.

But drivers still have all these fuel taxes loaded on 'em. (Yeah, they pay for roads...how much you wanna bet they pay for oil subsidies, too?)

This is hitting our truckers...big companies, small ones, and independents, all...very hard. Small companies are closing, independents are having to sell their rigs, big companies are reducing their fleets, which means unemployed truckers.

In early May, the truckers are going to go on strike. Nothing will get shipped for five days or so. So...y'all go stock up now on whatever you are going to need.

I totally support a trucker's strike. They're being crippled by these fuel costs, and they need a break. I am happy to be inconvenienced for a few days so that the people who get ALL our products to us can get the gummy-mint to stand up and take notice.

Cherie

 

[jwbassman]

+1,000.

Speaking of rising fuel costs...

We all know that the oil companies receive beaucoup subsidies/tax breaks, and their profist for '07 were around 18 billion.

But drivers still have all these fuel taxes loaded on 'em. (Yeah, they pay for roads...how much you wanna bet they pay for oil subsidies, too?)

This is hitting our truckers...big companies, small ones, and independents, all...very hard. Small companies are closing, independents are having to sell their rigs, big companies are reducing their fleets, which means unemployed truckers.

In early May, the truckers are going to go on strike. Nothing will get shipped for five days or so. So...y'all go stock up now on whatever you are going to need.

I totally support a trucker's strike. They're being crippled by these fuel costs, and they need a break. I am happy to be inconvenienced for a few days so that the people who get ALL our products to us can get the gummy-mint to stand up and take notice.

Cherie

I Think that the small independent truckers are being hit the worst. But I have heard that many truckers are now basically trying to pass the fuel costs off onto the companies that they are contacting with. Basically saying "Here's what I'll truck it for, and here is what the fuel is going to cost, take it or leave it".

I know that the cost of imported goods, even from places like China, are going up due to the cost of transport and fuel. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. Combine this with the falling dollar on the global market and it actually makes American goods more appealing for export and to businesses in the US to buy domestic products.