Ampeg is mixing cabs!

[Rick James]

I’ve got a big problem with those know nothing astrophysicists. They say that the earth revolves on an axis, and that the earth rotates around the sun. It can’t be. I know what I feel, and if the earth was rotating I’d feel it, and all the stuff would fall off my shelves. I know what I see, and I see the sun come up in the east in the morning, go across the sky during the day, and set in the west in the evening. It has to be rotating around the earth to do that.


These threads always end up in the same place, with subjectivists saying ‘trust your ears’, as if engineers don’t have ears. I’ve never yet met an engineer who didn’t listen to what he invented. I’ve never met one who didn’t use his brain to create his inventions, and I’ve never seen a pair of ears capable of inventing anything without the aid of what lies in between them. The subjectivists always accuse the engineers of saying that mixed cabs can’t work. I’ve never seen an engineer say that. What they do say is that mixing cabs is unpredictable. They also say that two cabs will almost always work better than one. That’s all they say, but that’s not what the subjectivists want to read, so that’s not what they see. I guess they should learn to trust their eyes. That takes us back to the sun rotating around the earth argument. Do I believe my eyes, or Stephen Hawking? What does he know?

 

[seamonkey]

And "Louder sounds better", adding any cab may just make it a little louder without touching the knobs.

Louder appears to have more lows and highs to human hearing and just "sounds better". Equal Loudness Contour
The mastering classes point this effect out.
It's a big problem with "mastering" - inexperienced producers will just end up making a mix louder, not better balanced. Trouble is "sounds louder" doesn't scale. Flipping the "Loudness" button on a stereo, doesn't work so well when the volume is cranked. Many stereos today have automatic "loudness" compensation just so it can fool people at all times. Loudness contour knobs show up on some bass amps, but they are not as useful as actually just adjusting the low,mid,high knobs. Adjusting knobs is what knobs are for. Adding cabs to adjust tone is clumsy at best.

 

[J-Bassomatic]

One major advantage of OCD is it eliminates this as an issue.

 

[Ox Boris]

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If they're going to stack them like that, at least make a fliptop 410!

 

[Al Kraft]

The subjectivists always accuse the engineers of saying that mixed cabs can’t work. I’ve never seen an engineer say that. What they do say is that mixing cabs is unpredictable.

This was a very interesting post Rick. It reminded me of how many things we sense/observe and yet could not easily explain without an understanding of physics especially in acoustics (e.g. Doppler effect, speed propagation differences in different mediums, etc.).

In the section of your post I quoted above, I wanted to add a thought in the last sentence..."What they do say is that mixing cabs is unpredictable" [without examining modelling information and/or test results and analyzing some numbers, which are all typically unavailable to the most consumers]. I'm confident that's what you meant, but I thought it was worth stating explicitly.

As an engineer I will admit that there are always some incredible answers beyond the boundaries of existing science and physics - IME coloring outside the lines is where you find true innovation. However, until that discovery is well enough understood that it can be represented by reliable models which consistently predict outcomes, even engineers can only experiment.

I agree that if it sounds good, it is good. However, if I plan to repeat that success I will need to understand the fundamental/first order reasons it worked. That understanding is usually deeper than generalizations about properties/aspects that may "look or sound" significant, but are actually a reflection of not knowing how or why you're actually getting the results you are.

 

[JimmyM]

This was a very interesting post Rick. It reminded me of how many things we sense/observe and yet could not easily explain without an understanding of physics especially in acoustics (e.g. Doppler effect, speed propagation differences in different mediums, etc.).

In the section of your post I quoted above, I wanted to add a thought in the last sentence..."What they do say is that mixing cabs is unpredictable" [without examining modelling information and/or test results and analyzing some numbers, which are all typically unavailable to the most consumers]. I'm confident that's what you meant, but I thought it was worth stating explicitly.

As an engineer I will admit that there are always some incredible answers beyond the boundaries of existing science and physics - IME coloring outside the lines is where you find true innovation. However, until that discovery is well enough understood that it can be represented by reliable models which consistently predict outcomes, even engineers can only experiment.

I agree that if it sounds good, it is good. However, if I plan to repeat that success I will need to understand the fundamental/first order reasons it worked. That understanding is usually deeper than generalizations about properties/aspects that may "look or sound" significant, but are actually a reflection of not knowing how or why you're actually getting the results you are.

That's the truth! How many times just on here have we seen people attribute things that happen to something irrelevant?

 

[BassmanPaul]

The picture is something that Marketing dreamed up IMO. It shows an amp, a 4x10 and a 1x15 all in one photo. The fact that it may not work as well as it looks is irrelevant!

 

[wintremute]

I'm a little bit ignorant about mixing cabs.

Will anyone please explain to me what COULD go wrong if you do it? What's the bad stuff that could happen?

 

[Al Kraft]

The picture is something that Marketing dreamed up IMO. It shows an amp, a 4x10 and a 1x15 all in one photo. The fact that it may not work as well as it looks is irrelevant!

The only thing one could fairly conclude with relatively high confidence from that photo is that Ampeg has at least three products and this is what they probably look like unless they have already exercised their right to make changes in their product offerings at any time.

I would submit that if there were three Mesa or GK products in a similar type photo with no additional information provided that is all one could fairly conclude there as well. We often read more into things than we reasonably should, and conversely sometimes people present information in a way to lead us to a conclusion that may not be 100% accurate. That's why asking questions and not just assuming is usually a smart way to go IME.

 

[wintremute]

The only thing one could fairly conclude with relatively high confidence from that photo is that Ampeg has at least three products and this is what they probably look like unless they have already exercised their right to make changes in their product offerings at any time.

I would submit that if there were three Mesa or GK products in a similar type photo with no additional information provided that is all one could fairly conclude there as well. We often read more into things than we reasonably should, and conversely sometimes people present information in a way to lead us to a conclusion that may not be 100% accurate. That's why asking questions and not just assuming is usually a smart way to go IME.

When you say that, you make it seem like those 3 products are being sold separately, but are just together for the photo.

However, Guitar Center, Musician's Friend, Music123, and other places are selling those 3 products as a package for $1499. So, my conclusion is, they should sound pretty good together, because they're being sold as a package.

 

[Deleted member 165050]

I'm a little bit ignorant about mixing cabs.

Will anyone please explain to me what COULD go wrong if you do it? What's the bad stuff that could happen?

The earth's orbit could be destabilized and the planet could spin off its axis into the sun. Although that will probably happen anyway if Killface ever gets the Annihilatrix to work.

 

[wintremute]

The earth's orbit could be destabilized and the planet could spin off its axis into the sun. Although that will probably happen anyway if Killface ever gets the Annihilatrix to work.

Challenge accepted!

 

[Al Kraft]

When you say that, you make it seem like those 3 products are being sold separately, but are just together for the photo.

However, Guitar Center, Musician's Friend, Music123, and other places are selling those 3 products as a package for $1499. So, my conclusion is, they should sound pretty good together, because they're being sold as a package.

...and I'm pretty sure that is what the person in the marketing department would like you to think, but it may or may not be a smart conclusion to draw based solely on the picture. If you were to ask the engineering department they might say (and I have no idea because I haven't inquired) that either cab would sound great with that head and you have one for large and one small venues - a great all-occasion package. They could also tell you that they designed them to work together or individually to give you the ultimate flexibility in getting that Ampeg tone you love in any size venue. A picture may be worth a thousand words, but that doesn't mean they are the words that answer all your questions.

 

[Rick James]

Guitar Center, Musician's Friend, Music123, and other places are selling those 3 products as a package for $1499. So, my conclusion is, they should sound pretty good together, because they're being sold as a package.

That's what they're counting on. They probably sound fine, but that's not the issue. Does that combination work better than a pair of the 1x15 or a pair of the 4x10 is the issue, and there's absolutely no objective evidence to be found anywhere to support that. The ostensible reason for mixing is that the fifteen gives better lows and the tens better highs. The reality is that fifteens don't necessarily go much, if any, lower than tens, and tens don't necessarily go much, if any, higher than fifteens. Worse, most fifteens can't handle the power than four tens will, so it's a mismatched combination from the get go. But you don't know that, and they won't tell you that.

 

[Al Kraft]

I'm a little bit ignorant about mixing cabs.

Will anyone please explain to me what COULD go wrong if you do it? What's the bad stuff that could happen?

Below is one of the simplest and most succinct answers I've seen regarding your question - there's a lot more that could be said in terms of scientific and technical details, but this hits the highlights. It's Bill Fitzmaurice's response to a TB post that I copied from the FAQ section of this forum:
↑
Bill Fitzmaurice and many others will tell you that same-sized drivers (speakers) do better together, even better when they're the same driver. For example, if you had a 2x12 cabinet and wanted another smaller one to put on it, getting a 1x12 would have better synergy with the 2x12 than, say, a 2x10.

At least I think I'm getting this right.


From Bill Fitzmaurice: Pretty much. The assumption is often made that tens, twelves and fifteens each have a characteristic tone and/or frequency response, so using one from column A and one from column B will give you a 'best of both worlds' result. That assumption is just plain wrong. There is no difference in either tone or frequency response that can be attributed to driver size in and of itself. Where the average musical instrument driver is concerned there's actually very little difference between the three sizes. But there are differences in the phase responses of different drivers and cabs, even different cabs loaded with the same driver, and when you mix and match them the results are at best unpredictable, the worst case being the cabs will detract from each other as much as they augment each other. So if you must take on item from column A and one from column B do so it a Chinese restaurant, not a music store.

That's not to say that there isn't any benefit in using different size drivers together. There's a great deal of benefit in that when the drivers are dedicated woofers/midranges/tweeters with a crossover insuring that each operates only in their own bandwidth.

If this information isn't in the FAQs it should be.

 

[JimmyM]

When you say that, you make it seem like those 3 products are being sold separately, but are just together for the photo.

However, Guitar Center, Musician's Friend, Music123, and other places are selling those 3 products as a package for $1499. So, my conclusion is, they should sound pretty good together, because they're being sold as a package.

Who says Ampeg came up with that package? Check the prices on each item separately...they add up to $1497. And since GC, MF, and Music123 are all the same company, it seems pretty likely that this is a package THEY put together, not Ampeg. And you still have the option of buying whatever you want out of that package separately...not like anyone's being forced to buy it.

 

[J-Bassomatic]

Challenge accepted!

Well, at the very worse I guess I won't have to worry about feeding the rabbits anymore.

 

[Ox Boris]

What's the bad stuff that could happen?

According to some, what'll happen is that our reality will dissolve before our eyes and after a moment's total blackness, up will come a sign in big, red letters saying: LEVEL TWO.

 

[wintremute]

Ampeg shows that same stack on their web site.

I would like to know if they designed and tested all the PF speaker cabinets to work together, (as MB has claimed to have done with the new Subway series).

Probably not, which has not prevented me from buying three different PF cabs, (which I don't mix).

If a company designs their cabs with different sized drivers to be used together, I don't see a problem. We can all probably name at least one or two major brands who have done exactly that and are enjoying great success with those products...why is it so hard to believe Ampeg did something similar?

Ampeg and their dealers will sell you any of their products in any combination; Ampeg's primary concern is that you buy.

I've had this exact stack for about three years now and whether Ampeg designed them to work together or it's just a happy accident, they work well together and sound great!

The mixed cab police should stop reading here or risk being horrified.

I sometimes mix the PF115 cab with a Fender 500C.

If the previous dude, Jerrod Tiers, was still working at Ampeg and came into this thread to tell us how mixing certain Ampeg cabs will result in excellent tone, I would listen. For now, none of us know anyone that knowledgeable at Ampeg. It's marketing garbage at this point.

We have Andy, Agedhorse, for the Mesa products explaining more technical items than you could ever imagine.

Mixing cabs and the science behind it is a real thing. For those that do not notice it, you have more choices! For those that have heard it (me), it's just a different world. I get most bothered by others who say this phenomenon is "not real" and science is full of it. If you liked your mixed cab tone, play it. But when you complain about how much it stinks, what else are we supposed to suggest for a possible fix?

We should get every Talkbass member in a big room and test every contentious point so we can actually set the record straight. Andy, Agedhorse, could lead the tests. Mix cabs, overpowering, underpowering, tube amp volume, SS volume, passive versus active basses....

Other than stacking corners that line up I've never seen any evidence from any company that their cabs have been designed to be used together.
The more I learn about 'this stuff' the less impressed I am with the supposed skills of most of those guys. I bet that the really good ones can't do what they'd really like to because their marketing departments won't let them. Will they admit that? Not if they like being employed.

Do you believe everything a car ad tells you?

The picture is something that Marketing dreamed up IMO. It shows an amp, a 4x10 and a 1x15 all in one photo. The fact that it may not work as well as it looks is irrelevant!

Who says Ampeg came up with that package? Check the prices on each item separately...they add up to $1497. And since GC, MF, and Music123 are all the same company, it seems pretty likely that this is a package THEY put together, not Ampeg. And you still have the option of buying whatever you want out of that package separately...not like anyone's being forced to buy it.

I've been in contact with Ampeg since this thread started. According to a rep:

"Phase testing is common practice in manufacturing procedures. All of our cabinets are in phase with each other."

and

"In the several years that these products have been on the market, we have not received the type of negative feedback that you are concerned with."

I sent them the link to this thread. We'll see if they have more input.

 

[Hoochie Coochie Man]

As an owner of many Ampeg products, (granted, many produced decades before Loud ownership), I look forward to participation by a representative of the engineering department of the Loud Corp.

I only own one piece of Mesa Boogie equipment today (but probably will own some of the new Subway stuff eventually). The presence of Mr. agedhorse here has boosted Mesa's image in my mind beyond its already good standing. I really appreciate that he offers a great deal of his technical expertise, often when it does nothing to advance the interests of the company he works for. His explanations of the design philosophy, and the explanations of technical aspects of Mesa products is something other companies should take a lesson from to show customers, and potential customers true commitment to their satisfaction.

Edited to add: Andy sets the bar high when it comes to matching his contributions here. I love most of my Ampeg, and other Loud products, but based on my small experience with asking Loud a question, I won't hold my breath waiting for their engineering department to be forthcoming with any concise technical information regarding the PF speaker cabinet design intentions.