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Ampeg is mixing cabs!

#83
BassmanPaul said:
It’s not the polarity of the cabinets that’s the problem with the pairing. It’s the fact that a single cone 15 has to keep up with the far more able 4x10. Historically where the pairing falls down it’s the 15 that fails.
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There are other considerations as well, and I hope Loud will realize there are many people here who will not be satisfied, (or fooled) by an oversimplified response.
 
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#84
Plus there's the fact that some 15s are tuned higher than a lotta 410s etc. ...
It's MARKETING ' buy 2 of our cabs for a Wall Of Sound' type thang.
I HAVE use 410 and 115 together. ..of same brand was supposed to be all good. ..and it DID sound good.
But. ...it sounded way better using 2 15s or 2 410s. I tried that too.
I now use 2 15s
 
#86
wintremute said:
I've been in contact with Ampeg since this thread started. According to a rep:
"Phase testing is common practice in manufacturing procedures. All of our cabinets are in phase with each other."
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If that rep was a skilled engineer he would have said 'All of our cabinets are polarity matched'. Polarity and phase are related, but they're not the same thing. No skilled engineer would every have made the claim that 'All of our cabinets have identical phase response', because that's only possible with identical cabinets. That's not to say that identical phase response is necessary, but it is a variable that affects the result, sometimes in a positive way, but sometimes in a negative way, and by no means is it the only variable that can have a negative result. None of this is something that a customer service rep looking at an 'Answers to FAQ' sheet is going to be aware of.

IMHO, the evils of mixing cabs is all a myth.
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I challenge you, and all others, to find a single quote where any engineer has ever stated what you and others claim they have. You can believe in what you want, but science is always right, whether you believe in it or not. Props for that to either Neil DeGrasse Tyson or Bill Nye, the Science Guy, I don't recall which.
 
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#88
I used to mix cabs. I don't anymore. It took me hearing two different mixed cab rigs with each cabinet on it's own to understand - First was a Peavey T-Max 210T with a Peavey 115BW. Either cab sounded better by itself. Same thing with my trusty Peavey Nitrobass with a Eden Nemesis 2x10 and a Crate 1x15. I've run every rig I've owned since (Markbass CMD210P + Traveler 210, Kustom KXB500 with 2 DE1500NEO cabs, Eden WT800C/Carvin BX500 + 2 Nemesis 2x10 cabs, and Aguilar TH500 with 2 SL112 cabs) with matching cabs and I've always been very happy with the tone. This is also my opinion, your mileage may vary.
 
#89
Notice the response says: "Phase testing is common practice in manufacturing procedures. All of our cabinets are in phase with each other."

I interpret that to be a quality assurance function to make sure speaker polarity is correct in production/assembly.

That is not the same as saying the design is such that the different models have been designed such that they will remain (at least substantially) in phase while producing bass instrument sounds.
 
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#91
Hoochie Coochie Man said:
As an owner of many Ampeg products, (granted, many produced decades before Loud ownership), I look forward to participation by a representative of the engineering department of the Loud Corp.

I only own one piece of Mesa Boogie equipment today (but probably will own some of the new Subway stuff eventually). The presence of Mr. agedhorse here has boosted Mesa's image in my mind beyond its already good standing. I really appreciate that he offers a great deal of his technical expertise, often when it does nothing to advance the interests of the company he works for. His explanations of the design philosophy, and the explanations of technical aspects of Mesa products is something other companies should take a lesson from to show customers, and potential customers true commitment to their satisfaction.

Edited to add: Andy sets the bar high when it comes to matching his contributions here. I love most of my Ampeg, and other Loud products, but based on my small experience with asking Loud a question, I won't hold my breath waiting for their engineering department to be forthcoming with any concise technical information regarding the PF speaker cabinet design intentions.
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Why should they? It won't change anyone's minds, and those who think it's all a grand Watergate-level conspiracy to get your money will still think so.
 
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#93
Well, it appears that the Ampeg rep doesn't want to have anything to do with this:

"This subject is a well-worn road and you’re trying to find answers that don’t exist. Mixing cabinet sizes didn’t start with the Portaflex series, it’s been happening for DECADES, ever since the first speaker cabinets came into existence. Your use or non-use of different sized cabinets is completely dependent on what sounds good to YOU. Every bass player that ever existed has a different idea of what sounds good to them- and everyone’s subjective opinion has merit. If it sounds good to you, do it. If it sounds like garbage to you, try something else. There is no right or wrong answer."
 
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#94
wintremute said:
Well, it appears that the Ampeg rep doesn't want to have anything to do with this:

"This subject is a well-worn road and you’re trying to find answers that don’t exist. Mixing cabinet sizes didn’t start with the Portaflex series, it’s been happening for DECADES, ever since the first speaker cabinets came into existence. Your use or non-use of different sized cabinets is completely dependent on what sounds good to YOU. Every bass player that ever existed has a different idea of what sounds good to them- and everyone’s subjective opinion has merit. If it sounds good to you, do it. If it sounds like garbage to you, try something else. There is no right or wrong answer."
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Whoever wrote that is 100% right. This is yet another "Let's beat up on the evil Ampeg for being so successful for so long" thread, and no matter what they say, it's not going to satisfy anyone who's whining about it.

Everyone in this thread was born with a mind of their own and freedom of choice...use it or lose it.
 
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#95
wintremute said:
"This subject is a well-worn road and you’re trying to find answers that don’t exist. Mixing cabinet sizes didn’t start with the Portaflex series, it’s been happening for DECADES, ever since the first speaker cabinets came into existence. Your use or non-use of different sized cabinets is completely dependent on what sounds good to YOU. Every bass player that ever existed has a different idea of what sounds good to them- and everyone’s subjective opinion has merit. If it sounds good to you, do it. If it sounds like garbage to you, try something else. There is no right or wrong answer."
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That needs to go in the Amps FAQ, IMHO.
 
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#96
wintremute said:
Well, it appears that the Ampeg rep doesn't want to have anything to do with this:

"This subject is a well-worn road and you’re trying to find answers that don’t exist. Mixing cabinet sizes didn’t start with the Portaflex series, it’s been happening for DECADES, ever since the first speaker cabinets came into existence. Your use or non-use of different sized cabinets is completely dependent on what sounds good to YOU. Every bass player that ever existed has a different idea of what sounds good to them- and everyone’s subjective opinion has merit. If it sounds good to you, do it. If it sounds like garbage to you, try something else. There is no right or wrong answer."
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This is a thoughtful and reasonable answer in my mind. As long as Ampeg (or any other manufacturer) does't have a technical reason to warn us about a dangerous/life threatening/gear destroying situation that could be created by mixing their cabs (other than discussing it on TB), it simply boils down to "do what you like".

To Ampeg I'd simply like to say, thank you for clearing us to try out all the options you've given us. Works for me, YMMV!
 
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#97
JimmyM said:
Whoever wrote that is 100% right. This is yet another "Let's beat up on the evil Ampeg for being so successful for so long" thread, and no matter what they say, it's not going to satisfy anyone who's whining about it.

Everyone in this thread was born with a mind of their own and freedom of choice...use it or lose it.
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To be clear, I didn't start this as an Ampeg bashing thread. I love Ampeg! I use Ampeg. I want more Ampeg.

However, I saw that GC was selling mixed cabs, so I thought it would be funny to post it in here. Then it was pointed out that the picture was on their website. Then I read their words saying you can mix any 2 cabs, no problemo. So, I want to know, were they engineered/designed to work super cool together? Or, is it just "You can mix them, but you may or may not like the results".
 
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#98
wintremute said:
So, I want to know, were they engineered/designed to work super cool together? Or, is it just "You can mix them, but you may or may not like the results".
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My sense is that a solid company like Ampeg would have told you specifically if there was a design related reason you shouldn't mix their cabs. From my perspective they've been in this business a long time and know what costumers expect of and typically do with their gear.

While the results from mixing their cabs may not deliver the sound/voicing you were looking for, their answer to your question implies to me that there is no engineering/physics/design based reason not to try it out. JimmyM is the Ampeg expert and knows the company better than me, so may have a different read on it, but that's the message I got from their response.
 
#99
Al Kraft said:
From Bill Fitzmaurice: Pretty much. The assumption is often made that tens, twelves and fifteens each have a characteristic tone and/or frequency response, so using one from column A and one from column B will give you a 'best of both worlds' result. That assumption is just plain wrong. There is no difference in either tone or frequency response that can be attributed to driver size in and of itself. Where the average musical instrument driver is concerned there's actually very little difference between the three sizes. But there are differences in the phase responses of different drivers and cabs, even different cabs loaded with the same driver, and when you mix and match them the results are at best unpredictable, the worst case being the cabs will detract from each other as much as they augment each other. So if you must take on item from column A and one from column B do so it a Chinese restaurant, not a music store.
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That's why I started the Group Delay thread some time ago. Besides some (little) phase issue there is (almost always) the more importent Group Delay if it comes to discuss the matching of different cabs. Bill was not completely right with his take of phase cause Group Delay of different cabs exceeds (in particular) more likely more than 1/4 of phase deviation than distinct phase response of different (ported) cabs on it's own might ever do.

Of course, I'm sure I'm rarely understood about the science I try to tell you (and you all).
So here you are:
Considerations on group delay of different cabs loaded with same driver

As long as there is no serious discussion about
Delay <> Phase
as long so far there could never ever be any serious discussion about issues with different cabs.
Sorry to say but, after endless discussions on TB, I feel a little bit ******* to try to tell that science acts a little bit diffrent than 99.9% of folks might think science must work like TB wisdom.

Another consideration might be the system damping of two different cabs. Oh no Sir, please don't tell me, stop it, I'm pretty sure "damping science" of ported cabs exceeds "phase science" by far.
 
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