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Ampeg V4 Club
- Thread starter birdman14
- Start date
Sunn 200S is a 60 Watt RMS amp (that 120W rating is peak power, not RMS). V4B is a 100 Watt RMS amp. I wouldn't trade.
Chris
Chris
Not sure where that stat sheet came from but the 200S is IIRC more like 55 or 60 watts. The 2000 may be 100. Also remeber that Is RMS clean watts. IIRC the v-4b peaks at about 260 watts.
I think I misread Veg's post. If he has a Sunn 200S, and somebody is offering him a V4B in trade, then I would take the V4B. It will be louder than the 200S.
Chris
Chris
I had to post some wrong info to bait people in the know to chime in
I had Googled "Sunn 200 specs" and that info was posted by an online seller that is selling a tube set for the model. I thought 120 watts seemed a bit hot for two 6550's.
I had Googled "Sunn 200 specs" and that info was posted by an online seller that is selling a tube set for the model. I thought 120 watts seemed a bit hot for two 6550's.
its a tough call and i cant pick. any one own both amps? my sunn may have an issue anyways, its super muddy through ampeg hlf , anywhere past 5 and its total distortion for an amp praised on its cleans.
i wish i could get both, nice suggestion!
too bad that wont happen any time soon
i wish i could get both, nice suggestion!
too bad that wont happen any time soon
So, here's the deal with Sunns. Their "ratings" were pretty much just lifted from the Dynaco Hi-Fi amps they were designed (cloned) from rather than actually output tested.
People who actually have hands on experience with early Sunn tube amps know this;
Here's another interesting Sunn tidbit...
People who have experience with vintage Sunns often make reference to how loud/powerful they are for their rated output.
This is 100% true.
Now; before the watt is a watt is a watt "internet experts" get their neophyte panties all wadded up, I'll tell you why they are so loud.
It's not the "numbers" it's the method they used to rate them; stricter audiophile hi-fi amp standards rather than the more common liberal (or more correctly "non-existent") "bass amp" rating standards.
When someone who actually knows tube amps looks at a naked, unlabelled Sunn chassis, sees the tube configuration and the grapefruit-cantaloupe sized iron, and then is asked to guess how powerful the amp is, they will usually guess almost twice what the amp's factory rating is.
The "120 watt" 2000S was 120 watts minimum continuous between 20hz and 20,000hz, +/- 1 dB, at <.5% THD.
Not 5% or 10% THD @ 1K hz, not +/- 10, 6 or even 3 dB, not between 1K -2K; and not the most common practice of just claiming watts without any discussion at all about the testing parameters.
.5%/1dB/20-20K
Just for reference, that's about "3" on a 200S/2000S volume knob...
Bass Gear Magazine does a great job of bench testing bass amplifiers; the best of any MI consumer publication IMO.
They generally use 5% THD as their "clean power" standard when benching tube amps. 5% sounds pretty damn clean to the human ear in the context of a MI amplifier.
Any of our "internet experts" care to comment on how much power an amp that can produce 60 watts at 20 hz +/- 1dB @ <0.5% THD should produce at, say 5% THD at 1K?
I've played 200S's and V4's side by side, and to my ear they are pretty similar as far as power. Tonally they are different flavors, but IMO neither really has a distinct "volume" advantage.
Can anybody verify the actual standard by which Ampeg rated/rates their V4B?
Making a procamation of one amp's power or loudness over another without a "level playing field"; having A/B'ed them side by side or even knowing what the standards are is a little irresponsible for someone lending their "expert" advice to a less experienced poster seeking it on a forum, don't you think?
Or, maybe we should take manufacturer's marketing departments ratings as gospel?
its a tough call and i cant pick. any one own both amps? my sunn may have an issue anyways, its super muddy through ampeg hlf , anywhere past 5 and its total distortion for an amp praised on its cleans.
i wish i could get both, nice suggestion!
Don't forget, if you have a 200S it's at least 40+ years old and certain components such as electrolytic capacitors and so on have a finite lifespan even under ideal conditions.
Along those lines, no amp you can buy (or trade for) is immune to needing a "good going through" every few decades.
That is some good info.
The Ampeg catalogs of the day do not specify the parameters for their power ratings. In the case of the V4B the '72 catalog states: "100 watts-plus RMS 260-plus watts peak music power"
I find this believable in my bass amp experience.
BTW Edbass, I am not sure who you were implying was giving unqualified "expert" advice - but I did disclose in my previous posts that I knew nothing of the Sunn's specs and that my later findings were found on a Google search.
The Ampeg catalogs of the day do not specify the parameters for their power ratings. In the case of the V4B the '72 catalog states: "100 watts-plus RMS 260-plus watts peak music power"
I find this believable in my bass amp experience.
BTW Edbass, I am not sure who you were implying was giving unqualified "expert" advice - but I did disclose in my previous posts that I knew nothing of the Sunn's specs and that my later findings were found on a Google search.
No one specifically, and about 75% of the posters on TB in general...
It does provide comic relief sometimes!
Interesting that they would say that. Typically Ampeg would list the peak music power as twice the RMS.
The V4 specs that I have say 100W RMS minimum continuous output power at less than 3% THD into a 2, 4, or 8 ohm load over a 20 to 20KHz bandwidth.
If you look at the KT-88 or 6550A tube data sheets they both say 100W output for a push-pull pair of tubes in class AB operation. Note that this is for a long service life. What the spec sheets don't say is that you can push those numbers without burning up the tubes.
(2) 6550 tubes running at 500V will put out about 60 Watts RMS into the optimum load. If you push them all the way to a pure square wave via overdrive, then you have a 120 Watt RMS square wave. My guess at 5% distortion would be about 63 Watts. Not a big difference.
(4) 7027A tubes running at 540V will put out about 100 Watts RMS into the optimum load. If you push them all the way to a pure square wave via overdrive, then you have a 200 Watt RMS square wave. My guess at 5% distortion would be about 105 Watts. Again, not a big difference.
To get a 3dB increase from a 60Watt RMS signal, you would need to have a 120Watt RMS signal. 3dB is not really that much louder. If you wanted to sound twice as loud as a 60Watt RMS signal, you actually have to go to a 600Watt RMS signal - that's 10dB. So yeah, a 100W RMS amp is not going to be much louder than a 60W RMS amp.
I've never owned a Sunn amp, but I own a V4B and I used to own a B25B which was a 55Watt RMS Ampeg. I sold the B25B because it wasn't loud enough for gigging. I use the V4B when I need to be loud. My gigging amp for bar type stuff is a homemade 80Watt RMS rig running (2) GE 6550A tubes at 660V into a 5K 100W-rated Hammond output transformer. I tried the Hammond hooked up ultralinear, but I changed it to regular pentode hook-up because I like that sound better. I have owned a couple of Dynaco Mark 3s which is what the Sunn was copied from, and they are definitely cool amps.
One other thing - the Dynaco output transformers were ultralinear, and that gives the cleanest output, but at the cost of a little bit of output power. Ampeg does not use ultralinear outputs, so they will naturally have a little bit more distortion at full power - nature of the beast.
So yeah, do whatever you want.
Chris
Certified Internet Expert
(4) 7027A tubes running at 540V will put out about 100 Watts RMS into the optimum load. If you push them all the way to a pure square wave via overdrive, then you have a 200 Watt RMS square wave. My guess at 5% distortion would be about 105 Watts. Again, not a big difference.
To get a 3dB increase from a 60Watt RMS signal, you would need to have a 120Watt RMS signal. 3dB is not really that much louder. If you wanted to sound twice as loud as a 60Watt RMS signal, you actually have to go to a 600Watt RMS signal - that's 10dB. So yeah, a 100W RMS amp is not going to be much louder than a 60W RMS amp.
I've never owned a Sunn amp, but I own a V4B and I used to own a B25B which was a 55Watt RMS Ampeg. I sold the B25B because it wasn't loud enough for gigging. I use the V4B when I need to be loud. My gigging amp for bar type stuff is a homemade 80Watt RMS rig running (2) GE 6550A tubes at 660V into a 5K 100W-rated Hammond output transformer. I tried the Hammond hooked up ultralinear, but I changed it to regular pentode hook-up because I like that sound better. I have owned a couple of Dynaco Mark 3s which is what the Sunn was copied from, and they are definitely cool amps.
One other thing - the Dynaco output transformers were ultralinear, and that gives the cleanest output, but at the cost of a little bit of output power. Ampeg does not use ultralinear outputs, so they will naturally have a little bit more distortion at full power - nature of the beast.
So yeah, do whatever you want.
Chris
Certified Internet Expert
'72-'75 V4 + '77 B25B CAB
My V4 has the 6550's mod with a non stock Output transformer, and can switch only between 4, 8 and 16 Ohms.
I don't know why they replaced it...This modification was done by the previous owner in the 90's.
Nevertheless, it sounds thunderous and looks stunning paired with the B25B cab!!!
I dropped a pair of Eminence Delta 15A instead of the stock CTS speakers, and it handles the power without problem!
It's my main amp since 2007 and for sure, that's a keeper!
May I have a number, please?
Updated list:
#1: Birdman14; V4B
#2: Floridabwoy; V4
#3: Phoenix Crush; V4
#4: Silenttodd; VT22
#5: SwansonEricJohn
#6: lowend1; V4, V4B
#7: nouroog; V4B
#8: Pedro; V4B
#9: Nashvillebill; V4
#10: coreyfyfe; V4
#11: BobbyXIII; V4, V4B
#12: Bassics; V4B
#13: J-O; V4B
#14: tapehead Ted
#15: tombowlus; V4B
#16: JimmyM
#17: paidtheprice; V4, VT22
#18: lazyone2; V4B
#19: StuardV; V4
#20: JvN; V4B
#21: JMac4strngr; V4
#22: 68Goldfish; V4B
#23: anderbass; V4
#24: wartonbass; V4BH
#25: Turock; V4BH
#26: Kramerbassfan; V4
#27: 2behead; VT22
#28: big stubby; V4B
#29: tallchris; V4B, VT22
#30: 3l3phantstomp; V4B
#31: themacinator; V4B
#32: ampegfuzz; V4B
#33: RockBobby; V4
#34: Hamerguy; V4BH
#35: zanzibar jorge; V4B
#36: karter2000; V4
#37: LowerBeef; V4BH
#38: Billy-Bob; V4
#39: Coughdrops; V4
#40: jbass62; V4
#41: Spinal Tapper; V4B
#42: 2behead; V4
#43: bassbobh; V4BH
#44: LH1000; V4B
#45: Bert Slide; V4B
#46: Epidrake; V4
#47: TheCush; V4
#48: subbasshz; V2
#49: Jazz_bass2664; V4
#50: throbbinnut; V4B
#51: Alex1984; V4
#52: Stiles72; V4BH
#53: gastric; V4
#54: Birdbrain; V4B
#55: Dave44; V4B
#56: the dude; V4
#57: jumbodbassman; V4
#58: FenderLove; V4BH
#59: denton57; V4B
#60: bsmithgrind23; V4B
#61: CoopNasty; V4B
#62: 68PBassDave; V4B
#63: Bass 45; V4, VT-22
#64: Old Fart; Vt-22
#65: TussinBot; V4B
#66: debris; V4
#67: astack; V4B
#68: Groovy_Gravy; V4B
#69: BassSurfer; V4
#70: 3mrrhythm; VT-22
#71: christw; VT-22
#72: Henko; V4B
#73: j_rod; V4B
#74: seventhsunbass; V4
#75: dubstylee; V4
#76: matthewcowley; V4B
#77: Ang1970; V4B
#78: Glenn Taylor; V4
#79: doudoubasse; V4
#80: Ben714; V4
to add food for though to the 200s vs v4 debate, the v4 with an inefficient cab wont be as loud as the 200s with an efficient cab. . .
120 watts vs 60 watts doesn't really mean anything without knowing what kind of cabs theyre gonna be pushing.
120 watts vs 60 watts doesn't really mean anything without knowing what kind of cabs theyre gonna be pushing.
I'm hoping to get a chance to look at this V4B and possibly buy it. Any rough ideas on a date based on this pic?
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