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Ampless + IEM: Where is the Volume knob?

bucephylus

bucephylus

Supporting Member
Aug 18, 2002
12,450
18,885
Central Ohio
#1
Maybe seems like a pretty stupid question, and maybe it is; but, couple months into playing ampless using IEM monitoring, I remain baffled as a player by trying to play with dynamics and varying levels.

I'm listening to my own monitor feed, which is great for clarity of vocal harmonies and for hearing specific parts, like the snare etc; but, it just seems like I've handed over all control of the mix levels to the sound person, and I'm having a really tough time digesting how the dynamics work with that setup. Yes, I can try to somewhat control my levels by feel; but, that just seems very artificial vs what is actually going out the front of house, since the feedback I'm getting is completely different. If that makes sense. Am I the only one struggling with that?

Just seems like the sound person owns the levels now. Which is great if you have a fantastic sound person and a lot less so if some buddy who knows not much about the music has their fingers on the controls. Mixed bag for me so far. Some pluses and some minuses.
 
#2
Unless you were running 100% off the stage ( or mostly ), I don't think you had as much control previously as you thought. You still can play soft or dig in loud with IEMs. I have my preamp pedal with a boost for certain licks that kicks it up a notch.

Our sound mind guy is a friend that owns the PA and is only a fader jockey. Since we've gone ampless and wedge monitorless the control he has now has made us sound much much better consistently.

What kind of dynamics are you trying to accomplish that you can't do or think isn't happening? I doubt I'll ever go back.
 
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#4
See if the soundman can get, or has, a board that is advanced enough to work with a mixing app on your phone. My last band had a little but powerful digital board, that was able to give total control to each of us on stage. We downloaded the according app, connect to the mixer's IP address, and boom...all the control you could ever want (depending on the board/app). It is UBER-convenient when you can change your levels any time you want, and as much as you want, all while never bothering the soundman after the initial system hook-up.

The coup-de-gras, was when our bandleader showed me how to get different instruments/voices in different ears...THAT was a custom mix! :woot:drool:hyper::bassist:
 
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#5
Meyatch said:
Why would you want someone other than the sound person to have control over the levels? That's what they're there for.
Click to expand...
In most gig situations I have experience with, Classical, Jazz, and until recently Clubbing R&B/Blues/Rock, it is the individual musician who has the responsibility for hearing the mix and responding to the demands of the dynamics using their touch and any other volume related knobs/pedals they may have. Of course, I've also gigged clubs (and even arenas) with dedicated FOH/sound folks; but, in those cases, it was always with amps on stage and controlling the dynamics with the fingers and knobs and using my ears. I certainly get it that the sound folks are controlling the FOH mix on those situations; but, I am also providing some degree of dynamics by virtue of interacting with the stage dynamics.

The ampless IEM thing in clubs is a new thing for me; so, please forgive my inexperience. I'm not accustomed to relying 100% on the sound person for my dynamics. Trying to provide such dynamics with the custom mix in my IEM's just feels really unnatural. Perhaps, that's just my chromosomal issue; so, YMMV.
 
#6
songwriter21 said:
See if the soundman can get, or has, a board that is advanced enough to work with a mixing app on your phone. My last band had a little but powerful digital board, that was able to give total control to each of us on stage. We downloaded the according app, connect to the mixer's IP address, and boom...all the control you could ever want (depending on the board/app). It is UBER-convenient when you can change your levels any time you want, and as much as you want, all while never bothering the soundman after the initial system hook-up.

The coup-de-gras, was when our bandleader showed me how to get different instruments/voices in different ears...THAT was a custom mix! :woot:drool:hyper::bassist:
Click to expand...
Right. We are using the X-32 system; so, I'm doing all that. I'm not hearing the same sense of dynamics in that mix that I get by monitoring an amp on stage. Don't get the same touch sensitivity. Can't hear the actually relevant mix the audience is hearing. Perhaps I should be monitoring the FOH mix in the ears rather than tailoring a custom mix. I don't know.
 
#7
Scottkarch said:
Unless you were running 100% off the stage ( or mostly ), I don't think you had as much control previously as you thought. You still can play soft or dig in loud with IEMs. I have my preamp pedal with a boost for certain licks that kicks it up a notch.

Our sound mind guy is a friend that owns the PA and is only a fader jockey. Since we've gone ampless and wedge monitorless the control he has now has made us sound much much better consistently.

What kind of dynamics are you trying to accomplish that you can't do or think isn't happening? I doubt I'll ever go back.
Click to expand...
Well I did a one off gig with a Chicago guitarist who was passing through town a couple months back. VERY experienced cat. Strictly old school. Guitar amp, bass amp, drummer, single PA speaker. The direct dynamics feedback was bluntly way more pronounced than what I am getting in the IEM's. Far more direct sense of where my playing dynamics were relative to verses vs choruses vs solos. I'm just not getting the same sense of dynamic range in the IEM system. Maybe, I am doing something wrong; but, we've been working at it for several gigs and all rehearsals now.
 
#8
What do you mean by dynamics? The band playing softer, louder, punch and so on?
I don't play jazz.. so I've never really worried about it - if that's what you are getting at.
Having been full IEM for 4 yrs now.. with literally hundreds of gigs on them.. Either I've adjusted or never missed it to begin with..?
 
#9
You're first post read to me like you were worried the sound person wasn't setting the mix right and you wanted to be able to make the bass louder or quieter in the overall mix, like you would by turning your amp up or down. If you are having trouble hearing your volume in relation to other people's volumes, that's not really the same issue. I just set things where I want them, and I can tell if I'm playing quieter or softer, but we don't do a lot of dynamic changes in general, and especially not any improvised dynamic changes. What are you using instead of an amp?
 
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#10
s0c9 said:
What do you mean by dynamics? The band playing softer, louder, punch and so on?
I don't play jazz.. so I've never really worried about it - if that's what you are getting at.
Having been full IEM for 4 yrs now.. with literally hundreds of gigs on them.. Either I've adjusted or never missed it to begin with..?
Click to expand...
Yup. That's what I was referring to. Bringing levels down for the verse, then building during solos; that kind of thing. Maybe, I guess you just don't do that so much with IEM's.
 
#11
Meyatch said:
You're first post read to me like you were worried the sound person wasn't setting the mix right and you wanted to be able to make the bass louder or quieter in the overall mix, like you would by turning your amp up or down. If you are having trouble hearing your volume in relation to other people's volumes, that's not really the same issue. I just set things where I want them, and I can tell if I'm playing quieter or softer, but we don't do a lot of dynamic changes in general, and especially not any improvised dynamic changes. What are you using instead of an amp?
Click to expand...
No, that was not my main point. But, it is an issue for us. Perhaps a secondary aspect. We just hired a guy to run our sound; finally after the vocalist trying to do it while performing. Happens to be an acquaintance of the band rather than someone who actually knows the music. I took my IEM's out mid tune only to discover that he had almost zero bass in the mix. We were doing Hey Ya. Before we broke up, I explained to him that we were hoping he would actually listen to the music to figure relative levels on the recording vs simply setting levels based on his awareness of what instruments are important in his reference frame. We will see. That one is going to be a learning curve.

No doubt, if the band is ampless, it places a premium on the sound person having analyzed all the mixes vs just making the guitars and the kick drum the loudest things.
 
#13
We've been ampless @ my church for several years, I use a personal mixer sending an aux in to my Phil jones bass buddy, I have complete control over everything in my Iem mix, without changing anybody else's mix... The sound crew basically controls the house mix, but we each have control over our own individual mixes. Great studio quality Iem sound consistently every week!
 
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#15
bucephylus said:
No doubt, if the band is ampless, it places a premium on the sound person having analyzed all the mixes vs just making the guitars and the kick drum the loudest things.
Click to expand...

If you can't trust the sound guy to mix, you may as well not use in ears. Done properly you will have no idea whatsoever what it sounds like out front.

I still don't completely understand the dynamic problem though. Are you having trouble hearing the other instruments change in level, to cue you to change dynamics? Or you can't hear yourself change?
 
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#16
bucephylus said:
Maybe seems like a pretty stupid question, and maybe it is; but, couple months into playing ampless using IEM monitoring, I remain baffled as a player by trying to play with dynamics and varying levels.

I'm listening to my own monitor feed, which is great for clarity of vocal harmonies and for hearing specific parts, like the snare etc; but, it just seems like I've handed over all control of the mix levels to the sound person, and I'm having a really tough time digesting how the dynamics work with that setup. Yes, I can try to somewhat control my levels by feel; but, that just seems very artificial vs what is actually going out the front of house, since the feedback I'm getting is completely different. If that makes sense. Am I the only one struggling with that?

Just seems like the sound person owns the levels now. Which is great if you have a fantastic sound person and a lot less so if some buddy who knows not much about the music has their fingers on the controls. Mixed bag for me so far. Some pluses and some minuses.
Click to expand...

The sound person ALWAYS "owns the levels" regardless of whether you're running IEM's or standard floor wedge monitors and an amp onstage, unless the band is bringing their own PA and doing all of the sound themselves.

The only difference now is you don't "feel it" as much onstage or have a way to instantly make yourself louder if you're having trouble hearing yourself; the first takes some getting used to, but the second only takes is letting the person in charge of monitors know you need more of yourself in your ears :thumbsup:
 
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#17
bucephylus said:
No, that was not my main point. But, it is an issue for us. Perhaps a secondary aspect. We just hired a guy to run our sound; finally after the vocalist trying to do it while performing. Happens to be an acquaintance of the band rather than someone who actually knows the music. I took my IEM's out mid tune only to discover that he had almost zero bass in the mix. We were doing Hey Ya. Before we broke up, I explained to him that we were hoping he would actually listen to the music to figure relative levels on the recording vs simply setting levels based on his awareness of what instruments are important in his reference frame. We will see. That one is going to be a learning curve.

No doubt, if the band is ampless, it places a premium on the sound person having analyzed all the mixes vs just making the guitars and the kick drum the loudest things.
Click to expand...

So the issue is that you've hired someone who isn't actually a good engineer, not the fact that you were using in ears; you can push everything in the FOH harder and the sound field while be significantly more uniform if you have an amp-less stage and a good engineer.

The band is still responsible for their own dynamics, a live engineer doesn't memorize or program an entire set's worth of volume automation.

When the whole band is playing forte, every instrument should be heard clearly: that's the job. The fact that your bass was almost inaudible has much less to do with him not knowing the material than it does him not being good at the job itself.

I can give your band a great mix if I'm hearing your material for the first time live, assuming none of the sounds you're sending me from the stage are totally unusable of course, and so can any other competent engineer.
 
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#20
Afc70 said:
That's why I love using my own personal mixer/ headphone amp- I never have to ask the soundcrew for anything in my mix, I have total control of my mix.. :)
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That's how we do things at my church gig, and it certainly does make everything easier...especially with four singers, three guitarists, keys, piano and choir in the mix ;)
 
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