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Ampless + IEM: Where is the Volume knob?

Again, we are playing local clubs. Pay is about $70 per player. If you know of any "pro sound folks" in Tucson interested in that gig, let me know. Sure I've also done many gigs with pro sound folks. I've been gigging for almost 50 years and have been on all kinds of stages. Just stating condescending stuff about this gig, that you know almost zip about isn't helping me out. Thanks, anyhow.

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No one is being condescending.

You said that the engineer needs to know the music as well as or better than the musicians, and that's simply not true.

I don't live in Tuscon, but I can tell you that the engineers working the clubs on the Sunset Strip don't bank much more than that, so I'd recommend at least looking for someone who knows what they're doing instead of entrusting your entire sound to an acquaintance who doesn't know that the bass is supposed to be loud enough to feel on "Hey Ya" ;)

Alternatively, one of the band members themselves can get up to speed on live sound inside of the next month to handle the heavy lifting for him if you don't have any other better options.
 
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Maybe seems like a pretty stupid question, and maybe it is; but, couple months into playing ampless using IEM monitoring, I remain baffled as a player by trying to play with dynamics and varying levels.

I'm listening to my own monitor feed, which is great for clarity of vocal harmonies and for hearing specific parts, like the snare etc; but, it just seems like I've handed over all control of the mix levels to the sound person, and I'm having a really tough time digesting how the dynamics work with that setup. Yes, I can try to somewhat control my levels by feel; but, that just seems very artificial vs what is actually going out the front of house, since the feedback I'm getting is completely different. If that makes sense. Am I the only one struggling with that?

Just seems like the sound person owns the levels now. Which is great if you have a fantastic sound person and a lot less so if some buddy who knows not much about the music has their fingers on the controls. Mixed bag for me so far. Some pluses and some minuses.

About 11 years ago I played in a band with IEMs ... I had 5 volume knobs on that IEM system and an amp on stage
 
We use a digital mixer for our own gigs, and every band member can adjust their own monitor mix with their phone or tablet. We carry a 16-channel XLR splitter for gigs where the house has a good FOH system so we can still mix our own monitors in such a venue if the FOH sound guy is up for it, and they almost always are. I like a LOT of bass in my ears, so it's nice to have my own monitor mix.

If you don't have a digital mixer, then you're back to the old style of "can you give me more X in my monitors". Not so bad, unless you're sharing monitor mixes with someone else in the band who might now want as much bass.

The pros have an entire separate board and sound guy just for monitors--it's a pretty big deal for most major acts.

Tom
 
Sorry, I thought I stated in the OP that, yes, we are using independent mixes. Mine is clear as a bell. I'm simply saying that while I can hear what I have dialed in, that mix isn't what is actually going out front, and which I am used to responding to with my playing levels with a stage mix centered sound. Sorry if I sound frustrated, but all I am getting back with many of the responses is that I don't know what I'm talking about. If you cats all think IEM only monitoring with no amps provides the same or better level of interaction, that's just simply not my experience so far.
As MDBass said earlier, there is no intended condescension, and certainly none from me.

Going ampless takes a little adjustment. You've stated everyone in the band has their own mix. Accepting this statement, one must concede you control your own mix, either through your phone or tablet, or through your communication with whoever is twiddling the dials. If you want the FOH mix in your IEMs, ask for it; it should be readily available. What is being said, politely, is that if you have your own mix you should be able to control how it sounds regardless of who is feeding it to you. If that doesn't work for you, than to quote you, it's your "chromosomal issue," which means you either deal with how it sounds without an amp or go back to how things were done in the dark ages before such options as individual monitor mixes were readily available to virtually any act on any size stage playing any kind of music and rely on your amp.

Going ampless isn't for everyone. My personal experience is that going ampless makes life much easier for everyone involved, including my fellow stage mates, those in charge of the sound in the house and the audience, which tends to result in more work from a wider variety of musicians and venues. If going ampless doesn't work for you, you can take solace in using an amp on stage as you have for "almost 50 years." Don't fix what ain't broke, right? I think you'll find, however, that going forward IEMs on a silent stage is going to become an increasingly more prevalent requirement.
 
So the issue is that you've hired someone who isn't actually a good engineer, not the fact that you were using in ears; you can push everything in the FOH harder and the sound field while be significantly more uniform if you have an amp-less stage and a good engineer.

The band is still responsible for their own dynamics, a live engineer doesn't memorize or program an entire set's worth of volume automation.

When the whole band is playing forte, every instrument should be heard clearly: that's the job. The fact that your bass was almost inaudible has much less to do with him not knowing the material than it does him not being good at the job itself.

I can give your band a great mix if I'm hearing your material for the first time live, assuming none of the sounds you're sending me from the stage are totally unusable of course, and so can any other competent engineer.
And even a few non-engineers with ears and willingness to learn the board/listen to the band...so many places are running the newer format mixers and powered speakers...not too difficult to get a good mix in a club/bar running two mains and maybe a small sub..on the other hand, in a larger venue (hall, arena etc) it has to be a legit sound engineer to make it work..

Edit: I am sure a trained pro will do it better in a bar too....I just meant it isn't near the challenge larger venues are...in particular if you are not battling stage noise ime, imho, ymmv
 
trust me, unless you always spent the whole gig standing out by the soundboard you couldn't before either.

Also not intended as condescending...but this ^^
Regardless of amps on stage, in ears or everything in wedges and side fill...none of us ever hear what the audience hears unless we go wireless and wander out to the floor..

Listen to the FOH recording...kindly point out what the band would like to change in it to the new 'sound guy', find a mix you like and allows you to hear the other players' levels/dynamics and then focus on breaking down this divide you feel between what you are hearing and your fingers...

It isn't and never will be the same as amps on stage...but when done well, I do think it sounds better for the customers...which is the point.

Do I like it as much on stage? Meh..but it's not about that...and I sure love the load in/out!

My favourite might be no amps, all through wedges and sides..can hear what I need, makes singing easier for me and nothing in my ears other than hearos (or one hearo if it's the rare song I sing lead on)

Some folks like those kick pads or whatever they are called...pulses in your feet or seat based on your playing...(or the kick)..
Maybe something like that would help?
 
Yup. That's what I was referring to. Bringing levels down for the verse, then building during solos; that kind of thing. Maybe, I guess you just don't do that so much with IEM's.

I play with IEMs all the time and have absolutely no trouble doing just that. Maybe your IEM feed is being compressed? I keep all compression off my IEM mix. Dynamics are absolutely no issue, and in fact, since I'm hearing everything more clearly, I find it easier to play dynamically.
 
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I play with IEMs all the time and have absolutely no trouble doing just that. Maybe your IEM feed is being compressed? I keep all compression off my IEM mix. Dynamics are absolutely no issue, and in fact, since I'm hearing everything more clearly, I find it easier to play dynamically.

Yeah, I was wondering whether there's too much compression on the board inputs. That would squash the dynamics in the IEM feeds, wouldn't it?

(Funny co-inky-dink, @bucephylus . You mentioned you're using the X-32 board, yeah? Some buds asked me to sub for their soundman this Saturday, and I was just reading the manual on that piece so I'd have some clue what the channel strips are about. Might be worth taking a look to see if maybe the compression got dialed up too much--either on your strip or maybe everybody's--and now that setting just comes back every time you do a recall on the board. It's convenient to have all that functionality in a small package, but I guess the tradeoff is that it's easier to overlook some processor buried a menu or two deep.

Just me spitballing, hoping it might be helpful.)
 
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I've been ampless for years now. Not having an amp on stage has never affected the dynamics or the ability of the players to respond to subtle changes; in fact, those I regular play with would tend to agree that going ampless enhances each individual's ability to hear and respond to nuances given a customized mix without sonic clutter and mic bleed from amps on stage.

Once the levels are set in the monitors correctly, whether IEMs or wedges, you should be able to hear very subtle nuances from each player. The size of the venue, the number of songs played, the variety or type of music played nor the size of the band should matter; once the monitors are set properly everyone should be able to hear with clarity. If you can't then you either don't have enough monitor sends to give everyone their own mix or you have not clearly conveyed to whoever is mixing the monitors what you need. As noted above, if you have a digital board, there is no reason why you cannot run your own monitor mix off an ap on your phone.

Please explain to me how your condescending post is supposed to be useful. Thanks.

I don't read anything condescending about his post. It is plain, factual and to the point.

Sorry, I thought I stated in the OP that, yes, we are using independent mixes. Mine is clear as a bell. I'm simply saying that while I can hear what I have dialed in, that mix isn't what is actually going out front, and which I am used to responding to with my playing levels with a stage mix centered sound.

I've read all the posts on this thread and I'm still confused.

Unless you were previously playing with no PA support at all then what you were previously hearing wasn't what was actually going out front either.

With IEMs you use your monitor control to get the mix of instruments to your liking and adjust your volume for quieter sections of a song with a lighter attack, using your bass volume or using a volume pedal or similar. The sound guy will adjust as necessary and you need not worry about that.
 
Don't get the same touch sensitivity. Can't hear the actually relevant mix the audience is hearing. Perhaps I should be monitoring the FOH mix in the ears rather than tailoring a custom mix. I don't know.

I play regularly with a band that is all IEM and ampless on stage. I have found that using the FOH mix for my IEM mix lets me control exactly how I sit in the mix and control my dynamics. Having said that, I don't use volume controls very often, most control is with my fingers and technique.
Prior to using the FOH mix, I would get inconsistent and mixed reviews on how I sat in the mix in the room. The Keyboard player just switched to the FOH mix as well, and it's made a noticeable improvement in the house mix.
If I get to hear what the audience does, it makes for a more organic performance.
 
Sorry, I thought I stated in the OP that, yes, we are using independent mixes. Mine is clear as a bell. I'm simply saying that while I can hear what I have dialed in, that mix isn't what is actually going out front, and which I am used to responding to with my playing levels with a stage mix centered sound. Sorry if I sound frustrated, but all I am getting back with many of the responses is that I don't know what I'm talking about. If you cats all think IEM only monitoring with no amps provides the same or better level of interaction, that's just simply not my experience so far.
I'm feeling your frustration. I'm going to lay out some things that caught my attention, and give you my perspective.

You: You can't hear what's FOH because you're hearing a monitor mix (and you're isolated from the rest).
Me: That's kind of the point, because even when you're doing amps and floor wedges, you're not hearing FOH, you're hearing the stage mix. For a lot of bands, this results in a lousy mix for the audience, or a too loud mix for management once you start volume wars with your high frequency deaf guitar player who has his amp pointing at his knees. Nobody in any band hears the FOH mix as it's designed to be heard, unless they are wireless and wade out into the crowd (which is useful in sound check and awesome during gig). I've tried running a house mix to my IEMs and it sucks - it's not designed for IEMs it's designed to compensate to fix the acoustics of the room. A monitor mix balanced to your needs will do the trick, once you get used to the experience.

You: I can't hear and react to dynamic changes.
Me: I think this may be a setting problem. Check the monitor mix compression and limit settings, they might be too high. You should be able to easily hear dynamic changes. You should be able to hear them better than if you weren't wearing them, in fact.

You: It feels like being ampless is giving up all control over FOH mix and tone.
Me: Yes, correct, it is. I sent a post eq signal from my BDDI but I don't mess with it beyond giving an emulated signature amp sound, so the sound guy has the flexibility with my tone to get it to sound good in that room with this band and cut thru the mix. Enjoy the freedom that transfer of responsibility gives you to focus on making the music, and let the sound guy focus on making sure your tone isn't too muddy and that people can hear it.

You: I don't have control over my volume.
Me: Also correct - you shouldn't because that's the sound guys job. Ok, part of me says "but wait, the guitar player goes louder when he solos because his dirt pedals add boost". That's probably true, and the sound person SHOULD manage that from the board. But it depends on what usually happens during solos. In my band, I take guitar solos as an opportunity to get extra expressive myself, so I boost/dirtify a little when he boosts for his solos, and I go back down when the solo ends. I've got a pedal for that. During sound check I turn my instrument volume knob up to full and let the sound guy do the rest. I make sure he sound checks the boost pedal too so it doesn't clip over the mains. That would be bad.

You: IEMs don't feel the same
Me: no, you're right, they don't. It took me the better part of about a dozen gigs to acclimate to mine, and it was a rough go because I had lots of singing parts and my instinct was to pull them out, and I had to fight that instinct. But they provide a better experience for the audience, they make for a happier venue management, and it should protect your hearing which is really important, unless you like talking to people in a busy room and thinking "I wonder what they're saying. Looks like they finished a joke - I better nod my head and smile."
 
We made the switch to IEM's 7 months ago and I was totally frustrated at every gig even though I had total control over volume levels using the mix app on my tablet. Then I came on TB and one guy suggested buying some expensive, multi-driver, isolating earbuds, but most important, they had to be isolating, meaning blocking almost all noise from your ears except the IEM's. Wow, what a difference. Spent a couple of hundred dollars on earbuds and it made a world of difference, wouldn't go back to on stage monitors or with amps again.

Also, as others have said, if you think that what you're hearing from the amps and drums from where you're standing on stage has any relation to what the audience is hearing I'm afraid you're wrong.
 
The sound person ALWAYS "owns the levels" regardless of whether you're running IEM's or standard floor wedge monitors and an amp onstage, unless the band is bringing their own PA and doing all of the sound themselves.
Sorry... but that's NOT accurate... We've carried our own IEM rig for 4 yrs now.. and NEVER let the "sound person" mix our IEM's. We do that ourselves via tablets and run a snake split into our rack, or give them a split to their FOH box.
 
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Sorry... but that's NOT accurate... We've carried our own IEM rig for 4 yrs now.. and NEVER let the "sound person" mix our IEM's. We do that ourselves via tablets and run a snake split into our rack, or give them a split to their FOH box.
He was referring to the sound guy owning the FOH sound levels, not the IEM levels.
 
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Another thing just to consider: this is a cover band situation 40 - 45 tunes played heel to toe in three sets. I appreciate that in a church setting, everyone can dial this stuff in. But, how many tunes is that sound person responsible for during a service? 8 - 10 maybe in a busy service? Different ballgame than someone walking into a club gig situation. Just saying.
I agree with you, it's a different ball game. I usually play a casino gig once a month, with IEM's. Fortunately, we are allowed to bring small amps onstage, ( keys, bass, guitar ). I place only one ear plug in, leaving the other ear open to hear what actually is going on onstage. The only thing I have in the IEM's are vocals and horns. I know this doesn't help you out, but, maybe in the future, once you get the sound guy up to speed, it might be something to consider. Personally, I like the way this " mix " sounds to me, and the casino sound guy is very hip to our music ( classic Soul, dance RnB ). However, the whole experience of IEM's is a little difficult to get use to for a guy like me who has only recently started to use them after practically 40 years of using stage monitors. I much prefer hearing the full band onstage " mix ", so, what I am doing is the best compromise I can come up with.
 
He was referring to the sound guy owning the FOH sound levels, not the IEM levels.
I don't think so.. given that the part I quoted said
MDBass said:
The sound person ALWAYS "owns the levels" regardless of whether you're running IEM's or standard floor wedge monitors and an amp onstage, unless the band is bringing their own PA and doing all of the sound themselves.
which was in response to
bucephylus said:
.
.
Just seems like the sound person owns the levels now. Which is great if you have a fantastic sound person and a lot less so if some buddy who knows not much about the music has their fingers on the controls. Mixed bag for me so far. Some pluses and some minuses.
 
I get what you're saying. We are all IEM at my church and I struggle with dynamics within the band. Because I mix my own ears with the bass louder than everything else it can be a struggle to tell exactly how soft or hard I need to play. What you normally hear with amps and live drums it's easier to blend the band together dynamically.

Can you set up an ambient mic that picks up room noise? That helped some and I also pop one of my monitors out to hear how loud I am through the system.

On a really quiet part it can be tough to find just the right amount of force on the string to sit where I want to be volumewise.