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Ampless + IEM: Where is the Volume knob?

#61
also - it doesn't need to be this hard...play the gig with what you get..I spent years on a circuit that sometimes had back line, sometimes didn't, sometimes had wedges, sometimes didn't...same with in ears...if you know your set, play it...make do...what matters is the end result...if I play a whole set hearing just a smidgeon of what I play, but I know my set, I can alter dynamics etc as needed...and too bad for me...does it sound good out there for the punters? Yes? then thats a win...it isn't about us....its like that guitar player who 'needs' ear melting loud amp on stage...no you don't...entertainer means entertain...nobody hires an 'artist' to a bar or club gig
 
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#62
I think what @bucephylus is trying to say is that it's harder to play off each other with ears - and that is 100% true. Not impossible, just harder. When using IEM's I'm no longer playing to what I hear the drummer/guitarist doing; I'm playing to what I've dialed into my mix (what I'm choosing to hear). That can be tricky, and it takes some getting used to.

The mix that the audience hears is, has, and should always be up to the FOH engineer (unless the room is small enough that you can control it on your own). But when it comes to playing with ears, dialing in your own personal mix is key. I think you can still achieve that tight dynamic playing as long as you've mixed your ears well.

I apologize for the shameful self-promotion; it's not my intention but I literally just did a video on how to do this, you may find it helpful:



Hope that helps!
 
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#63
jaymelewis said:
I think what @bucephylus is trying to say is that it's harder to play off each other with ears - and that is 100% true. Not impossible, just harder. When using IEM's I'm no longer playing to what I hear the drummer/guitarist doing; I'm playing to what I've dialed into my mix (what I'm choosing to hear). That can be tricky, and it takes some getting used to.

The mix that the audience hears is, has, and should always be up to the FOH engineer (unless the room is small enough that you can control it on your own). But when it comes to playing with ears, dialing in your own personal mix is key. I think you can still achieve that tight dynamic playing as long as you've mixed your ears well.

I apologize for the shameful self-promotion; it's not my intention but I literally just did a video on how to do this, you may find it helpful:



Hope that helps!
Click to expand...

then dial in a mix that has more drums? more guitars? options are limitless...
 
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#65
Thanks very much for all the responses. And, apologies if I have presented my concerns in a confusing way.

After considering the situation with my concern about dynamics over night, my feeling is that the drummer is still the dynamics knob for the band. As such, I am going to work on the drummer recognizing that role and hearing something like the FOH sound as reference. That way, he can be aware of the group dynamic and lead levels accordingly. Then, just make sure that everyone is hearing and responsive to drummer levels. That should address my concerns.

Part of the deal is that I don't know what everyone else is setting in their IEM feeds. No idea what the drummer is listening to, and he is a bit inexperienced; so just have to make sure that's in the right place. Everything else should follow. More or less.

Bottom line is that since the band went ampless, dynamics have gone out the window. With the amp, I had been able to exert some influence over the stage response dynamics when the rest of the band wasn't aware or whatever. Without the amp, I can't do that. Now everyone has to pay more attention to their roles.
 
#66
pudgychef said:
then dial in a mix that has more drums? more guitars? options are limitless...
Click to expand...

Exactly! Well, almost - it's not just turning up volume on a particular track. The problem is, not everyone is familiar with basic mixing techniques like panning, slight EQ and compression to help their mix gel. More often than not, the answer isn't "dial in more drums" or guitars; it's pan them to where they aren't in your face, or scoop out some low mids so it doesn't interfere with you... Not difficult stuff, but something to be aware of, and I find that most players shy from this stuff. Of course, YMMV.
 
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#71
As @jaymelewis mentioned, it's the playing off each other thing that has suffered. I hear everything just fine. No doubt the IEM is far superior in that respect. It's the interactive dynamics that have suffered. Anyhow, I'm going to push for everyone to queue off the drummer and get him to be mindful of levels and see where that goes. I can't use the bass to drive that as much any more; and perhaps, I shouldn't have been doing it anyhow.
 
#73
mr_flood said:
If it helps, you can take comfort in the fact that 99.9% of the people who heard your band before IEMs and after wouldn't be able to tell any difference in how you sound.
Click to expand...
As long as they hear the vocals in both cases, I pretty much agree. Although, not so much when playing the more dancey sets, where the feel really is important in keeping the dance floor full.
 
#74
pudgychef said:
also - it doesn't need to be this hard...play the gig with what you get..I spent years on a circuit that sometimes had back line, sometimes didn't, sometimes had wedges, sometimes didn't...same with in ears...if you know your set, play it...make do...what matters is the end result...if I play a whole set hearing just a smidgeon of what I play, but I know my set, I can alter dynamics etc as needed...and too bad for me...does it sound good out there for the punters? Yes? then thats a win...it isn't about us....its like that guitar player who 'needs' ear melting loud amp on stage...no you don't...entertainer means entertain...nobody hires an 'artist' to a bar or club gig
Click to expand...
I get your point. But, what I've seen happen is that especially playing the dancey stuff, that the overall band tends to lose energy if they aren't playing off each other; and that translates into not as full of a dance floor. I can sit there playing all the right stuff all night long; but, if the rest of the band is losing energy, I'm not happy.
 
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#75
jaymelewis said:
Exactly! Well, almost - it's not just turning up volume on a particular track. The problem is, not everyone is familiar with basic mixing techniques like panning, slight EQ and compression to help their mix gel. More often than not, the answer isn't "dial in more drums" or guitars; it's pan them to where they aren't in your face, or scoop out some low mids so it doesn't interfere with you... Not difficult stuff, but something to be aware of, and I find that most players shy from this stuff. Of course, YMMV.
Click to expand...
Very true.. but never put compression on vocal tracks being fed into monitor mixes, either IEM or wedge.
Not only to the vocalists lose dynamics, the harder they sing, the more the mix is squashed and they will blow out their voices.
Obviously, this does NOT apply to FOH :)
 
#76
bucephylus said:
I get your point. But, what I've seen happen is that especially playing the dancey stuff, that the overall band tends to lose energy if they aren't playing off each other; and that translates into not as full of a dance floor. I can sit there playing all the right stuff all night long; but, if the rest of the band is losing energy, I'm not happy.
Click to expand...
then be the guy that brings the energy back! I think we can all choose our big or small personality self...be the fire!
 
#78
I feel like I'm more capable of bringing the energy when I'm choosing what I hear and not trying to avoid too loud everything else. My mix is essentially enough vocals to hear when the singer screws something up and I have to follow her, enough guitar to tell when he's taking a solo, enough rhythm guitar to hear when he's starting a song by himself, and enough bass and drums to put a smile on my face.
 
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#79
s0c9 said:
Sorry... but that's NOT accurate... We've carried our own IEM rig for 4 yrs now.. and NEVER let the "sound person" mix our IEM's. We do that ourselves via tablets and run a snake split into our rack, or give them a split to their FOH box.
Click to expand...

Talking about the FOH levels bud.

I won't let a stranger control my IEM's either, it's either our own mix engineer or a personal mixer; a bad IEM mix is exponentially worse than a bad wedge mix, and a feedback spike directly into your eardrum is how wars start ;)
 
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