Ampless + IEM: Where is the Volume knob?

[s0c9]

Talking about the FOH levels bud.

I won't let a stranger control my IEM's either, it's either our own mix engineer or a personal mixer; a bad IEM mix is exponentially worse than a bad wedge mix, and a feedback spike directly into your eardrum is how wars start

If that's your situation above, FOH levels have nothing to with monitor mix levels... bud!! Why even bring it up in your original post below? It's NOT relevant.

The sound person ALWAYS "owns the levels" regardless of whether you're running IEM's or standard floor wedge monitors and an amp onstage, unless the band is bringing their own PA and doing all of the sound themselves.

 

[Meyatch]

There has been a lot of confusion in this thread from the beginning about whether people were talking about foh levels or in-ear levels. While MDBass didn't specify he was talking about foh levels, a lot of people have been telling the op that he doesn't have the control over foh levels that he thinks he does. I read it as MDBass talking about foh levels, a lot of other people did too. He's now told you he was talking about foh levels. Can't you accept that it's what he's talking about?

Just add a little (foh) in front of levels, it still makes complete sense. In fact much more sense than if he was talking about iem levels.

 

[s0c9]

There has been a lot of confusion in this thread from the beginning about wether people were talking about foh levels or in-ear levels. While MDBass didn't specify he was talking about foh levels, a lot of people have been telling the op that he doesn't have the control over foh levels that he thinks he does. I read it as MDBass talking about foh levels, a lot of other people did too. He's now told you he was talking about foh levels. Can't you accept that it's what he's talking about?

Just add a little (foh) in front of levels, it still makes complete sense. In fact much more sense than if he was talking about iem levels.

Of course, I can accept that is what he was talking about.. but if so, the OP saying "The sound person ALWAYS "owns the (foh) levels" regardless of whether you're running IEM's or standard floor wedge monitors is a "well DUH! Captain Obvious" moment, akin to saying the bassist owns playing the bass!

 

[MDBass]

If that's your situation above, FOH levels have nothing to with monitor mix levels... bud!! Why even bring it up in your original post below? It's NOT relevant.

It's totally relevant if you've read what the OP is posting.

There are multiple issues, one of which was the bass being nearly inaudible out front.

Also, if you actually read my full post "unless the band is bringing their own PA and doing all of the sound themselves." completely covers the IEM situation that you're referring to, so I'm not sure what you were actually attempting to "correct" in the first place.

 

[Meyatch]

Of course, I can accept that is what he was talking about.. but if so, the OP saying "The sound person ALWAYS "owns the (foh) levels" regardless of whether you're running IEM's or standard floor wedge monitors is a "well DUH! Captain Obvious" moment, akin to saying the bassist owns playing the bass!

Some of us have been beating around the bush a little more, but that's the jist of the advice op has gotten on that subject.

 

[el murdoque]

This sounds like a problem that can be remedied by setting the levels of each individual mix correctly.
Our band changed to IEM in a process. It all started out when one of our three singers bought some headphones and made our guitarist, who is also our tech guy, fire up what was left of the old IEM system from a previous band.
There was equipment for three IEMs lying around and one of our female singers has the problem of not singing loud enough for the mic at stage volume - so we hooked up all singers and got rid of their wedges - with the main intent of eliminating feedback from that boosted mic on stage. I got fed up after playing a couple of small venues where my amp was carrying the house but the stage was so small I had to stand right next to it. All I heard of myself was the backwash from the rear wall. So I got me a system and decent plugs - and three rehearsals later, everyone was wearing IEMs.

Having the power to really hear all the other instruments at your desired levels did in fact increase the band dynamics.
Before, especially on small bar gigs where FOH was just for the drums (e-drum set) and the singers, I had problems hearing exactly what the guitar on the far side of the stage was playing. Now I can hear him and he can hear me. If one of us takes it down a couple of notches, the other can react accordingly instead of simply playing on without hearing the change in dynamics. Having more control over my tone because I can hear it so clearly is another boost.
During rehearsal, all the members gained awareness of the others' doings. If someone makes a tiny mistake, he immediately gets the eye from the others - something that would have taken a major one before IEM.

I suggest you review the other players' IEM settings. If they have little to no bass in them, I can guess where the problem might hide.

 

[s0c9]

It's totally relevant if you've read what the OP is posting.

There are multiple issues, one of which was the bass being nearly inaudible out front.

Also, if you actually read my full post "unless the band is bringing their own PA and doing all of the sound themselves." completely covers the IEM situation that you're referring to, so I'm not sure what you were actually attempting to "correct" in the first place.

Not sure how you got to "I'm not sure what you were actually attempting to "correct" in the first place".. but OK.
Yes, there seemed to be multiple issues.. and I'm still waiting for someone to connect-the-dots on what "bass being nearly inaudible out front" has to do with the OP's dynamics question - with him being ampless and IEM??

 

[MDBass]

Not sure how you got to "I'm not sure what you were actually attempting to "correct" in the first place".. but OK.
Yes, there seemed to be multiple issues.. and I'm still waiting for someone to connect-the-dots on what "bass being nearly inaudible out front" has to do with the OP's dynamics question - with him being ampless and IEM??

You said "Sorry... but that's NOT accurate... We've carried our own IEM rig for 4 yrs now.. and NEVER let the "sound person" mix our IEM's." in response to "The sound person ALWAYS "owns the levels" regardless of whether you're running IEM's or standard floor wedge monitors and an amp onstage, unless the band is bringing their own PA and doing all of the sound themselves." because you thought I was referring to monitors.

Even if I had been referring to monitors, the sound person would still "own the levels" on either your stage monitors or IEM's, unless of course the band brought their own system (like you do) which falls squarely under "doing the sound themselves."

Just read the OP's posts if you're interested, they'll connect all the dots for you

 

[s0c9]

You said "Sorry... but that's NOT accurate... We've carried our own IEM rig for 4 yrs now.. and NEVER let the "sound person" mix our IEM's." in response to "The sound person ALWAYS "owns the levels" regardless of whether you're running IEM's or standard floor wedge monitors and an amp onstage, unless the band is bringing their own PA and doing all of the sound themselves." because you thought I was referring to monitors.

Even if I had been referring to monitors, the sound person would still "own the levels" on either your stage monitors or IEM's, unless of course the band brought their own system (like you do) which falls squarely under "doing the sound themselves."

Just read the OP's posts if you're interested, they'll connect all the dots for you

LOL.. Ok.. Seems like you were conflating two different topics..

 

[MDBass]

LOL.. Ok.. Seems like you were conflating two different topics..

Not at all actually; you misunderstood a post and corrected something that didn't need any correcting, even if you hadn't mistaken the context of the post.

It really doesnt matter, and this aside is just needlessly combative and not actually contributing anything useful to the thread or the OP.

All good

 

[mrufino1]

Yup. That's what I was referring to. Bringing levels down for the verse, then building during solos; that kind of thing. Maybe, I guess you just don't do that so much with IEM's.

I have found it easier to play with dynamics once I get my mix set right. I can definitely hear others getting louder or softer, even though the balance in my ears is not the foh balance.

Ambient mics were mentioned, which you said won't help because it's an ampless stage (still my dream by the way!!), but what about an ambient mic out by the board in the audience, or out in the audience even if the board isn't? I've hung an ambient omni mic from our lighting tree at times, which is slightly out in front of the speakers. That would get sent only to iem's obviously, not to front of house.

 

[bucephylus]

I have found it easier to play with dynamics once I get my mix set right. I can definitely hear others getting louder or softer, even though the balance in my ears is not the foh balance.

Ambient mics were mentioned, which you said won't help because it's an ampless stage (still my dream by the way!!), but what about an ambient mic out by the board in the audience, or out in the audience even if the board isn't? I've hung an ambient omni mic from our lighting tree at times, which is slightly out in front of the speakers. That would get sent only to iem's obviously, not to front of house.

That could make sense. Thanks!

 

[bucephylus]

Not sure how you got to "I'm not sure what you were actually attempting to "correct" in the first place".. but OK.
Yes, there seemed to be multiple issues.. and I'm still waiting for someone to connect-the-dots on what "bass being nearly inaudible out front" has to do with the OP's dynamics question - with him being ampless and IEM??

You are quite correct. Totally unrelated aspects. But, in both cases, there I am happily playing my parts along with my own personal awesome mix, and totally unaware of the other stuff going on. I mean the dynamics question is only there for me, because I am aware of it from the old days and because I still play orchestra. Otherwise, quite honestly I'm all good playing along with my custom mix in my own little world. Except, I also like to see the dance floor full...

 

[Geri O]

Please explain to me how your condescending post is supposed to be useful. Thanks.

If you consider that post to be condescending, then I'm afraid you will not find an answer to your question.

I had some ideas, but I think at this point, if I were you, I'd just cut to the chase, lose the IEMs, and go back to amps and wedges.

 

[s0c9]

You are quite correct. Totally unrelated aspects. But, in both cases, there I am happily playing my parts along with my own personal awesome mix, and totally unaware of the other stuff going on. I mean the dynamics question is only there for me, because I am aware of it from the old days and because I still play orchestra. Otherwise, quite honestly I'm all good playing along with my custom mix in my own little world. Except, I also like to see the dance floor full...

Don't we all !! Means it's working !!

 

[bucephylus]

If you consider that post to be condescending, then I'm afraid you will not find an answer to your question.

I had some ideas, but I think at this point, if I were you, I'd just cut to the chase, lose the IEMs, and go back to amps and wedges.

Well, that particular post essentially stated that there is no problem with the IEM system itself regarding dynamic interplay, and that we just don't know how to use it. Which may be true. But, since there was little in the way of suggested corrective action other than change the individual feeds, and much more emphasis on the authority of expertise, I interpreted the post to be condescending, even if not intended that way.

Now, you post up that essentially this band is too inept to use the system, so we should just dump it. Not sure why I should find your post particularly constructive; but, if it makes you feel good, then I suppose that's something.

 

[walterw]

Bottom line is that since the band went ampless, dynamics have gone out the window. With the amp, I had been able to exert some influence over the stage response dynamics when the rest of the band wasn't aware or whatever. Without the amp, I can't do that. Now everyone has to pay more attention to their roles.

I hear everything just fine. No doubt the IEM is far superior in that respect. It's the interactive dynamics that have suffered. Anyhow, I'm going to push for everyone to queue off the drummer and get him to be mindful of levels and see where that goes. I can't use the bass to drive that as much any more; and perhaps, I shouldn't have been doing it anyhow.

hmm, this sounds like the problem is not your mix, it's everybody else's mix.

if they can't hear you right and are not responding to the musical cues you're used to throwing out, that's on them to correct.

If it helps, you can take comfort in the fact that 99.9% of the people who heard your band before IEMs and after wouldn't be able to tell any difference in how you sound.

maybe not true; done right, IEMs should result in the singers sounding more in tune and (since we're not fighting the loud stage volume created by stage amps and blasting wedges) the out front mix should be cleaner and quieter.

 

[bucephylus]

IEMs should result in the singers sounding more in tune and (since we're not fighting the loud stage volume created by stage amps and blasting wedges) the out front mix should be cleaner and quieter.

This true fo' sho'.

 

[bucephylus]

Of course, I can accept that is what he was talking about.. but if so, the OP saying "The sound person ALWAYS "owns the (foh) levels" regardless of whether you're running IEM's or standard floor wedge monitors is a "well DUH! Captain Obvious" moment, akin to saying the bassist owns playing the bass!

But, here's the thing. It's a "DUH" moment if I am gigging at Glendale Arena. Been there, done that. Many times. I get it. My OP question has to do with the context of using this system in the local bar band circuit. That is what is new for me. Sure, doing big shows at our Fox Theater or something always has a huge Pro Sound FOH - sound engineer etc. Yup, I'm at least not so stupid as to be asking about that scene.

Our band is playing local sports bars. "FOH" in the amped environment in the local bar circuit always included the stage amps. Now, we are going ampless. Great. But, our sound guy is the vocalist's brother. No experience mixing at all, and learning on the job. I monitored FOH at last rehearsal, and the mix was tending to go from right (where we first explained what we wanted) to wrong, as the guitar wash just kept creeping up. The band has both young guys and older guys, and there is a bit of an experience differential going on, in terms of knowing how to adjust between solo and backing levels by the individual players. With amps and no ears, one of us could walk over to the incorrectly set player and ask them to bring it down or whatever. Now, there is somewhat random chaos between the new sound guy trying to adjust and the inexperienced players not knowing how to adjust their own levels between backing and solo. Honestly, it's a mess. At the moment. For the gig, I intend to just go back to my own IEM feed and blithely play on assuming FOH is incredible. Which I know it won't be.

So, to everyone telling me I'm just old and stupid in this thread; that's fine and might be true. But, I'm just posting what I am seeing in a really typical bar band context with a pretty average band that works hard at trying get all their parts right and put people on the dance floor.

If that makes me a piker for deigning to play with such unsophisticants, or the band totally inept because they are struggling with figuring this stuff out, then, I'll just stop posting what I believe to be practical questions, go somewhere else, and leave this forum to the geniuses here.

 

[bucephylus]

Just for reference sake, this band has about a 120 tune playlist, spanning Elvis to Bruno Mars. Basically, if it's popular, we play it. Here is a clip of some Beatles from a gig at the Fox Theater here in Tucson. Not the best cover band I've gigged with, nor the worst. Just some club band cats trying to get it done.



Normally, this act is doing the standard Tucson clubs. FWIW.