Ampless + IEM: Where is the Volume knob?

[MDBass]

One word to help with your issue. Aviom.

Unfortunately, the real the issue appears to be that the FOH mix sucks

(Edit: the child in me is delighted to have an appropriate reason to use the poop emoji)

 

[bucephylus]

If you can't trust the sound guy to mix, you may as well not use in ears. Done properly you will have no idea whatsoever what it sounds like out front.

I still don't completely understand the dynamic problem though. Are you having trouble hearing the other instruments change in level, to cue you to change dynamics? Or you can't hear yourself change?

Actually it's some of both. I think we are going to all try listening to the FOH mix next rehearsal and see if that promotes more sense of actual dynamics. Using the personal mixes is great for hearing harmonies and particular instruments, for example, I like to track the snare; but, the custom mixes don't track the overall dynamics going out the front. And, one of my points or questions is whether it actually should.

On your second point, yes, I'm still learning to set my input trim such that it leaves me headspace to work with the dynamics. That one is on me. To this point, been struggling to get the bass level correctly inserted into the mix and maxing the trim in doing so.

 

[Afc70]

That's how we do things at my church gig, and it certainly does make everything easier...especially with four singers, three guitarists, keys, piano and choir in the mix

Honestly I was skeptical when our wl mentioned going ampless several years ago, however the transition has been great & I don't miss the volume wars that always seemed to have occurred. It's nice to just walk in, & plug-n-play!

 

[bucephylus]

So the issue is that you've hired someone who isn't actually a good engineer, not the fact that you were using in ears; you can push everything in the FOH harder and the sound field while be significantly more uniform if you have an amp-less stage and a good engineer.

The band is still responsible for their own dynamics, a live engineer doesn't memorize or program an entire set's worth of volume automation.

When the whole band is playing forte, every instrument should be heard clearly: that's the job. The fact that your bass was almost inaudible has much less to do with him not knowing the material than it does him not being good at the job itself.

I can give your band a great mix if I'm hearing your material for the first time live, assuming none of the sounds you're sending me from the stage are totally unusable of course, and so can any other competent engineer.

Right. Precisely.

This happens to be a one gig a month hobby-ish band that is learning on the fly. No, we don't have an experienced sound engineer who knows the music. And yes, I am asking several questions. Your point, that the sound engineer is NOT responsible for the overall dynamics, I think is spot on. But, part of my sense so far is that using the customized mixes to tailor a different individual mix than what is going out the FOH tends to make dynamic interplay between the musicians somewhat less obvious.

 

[bucephylus]

Sorry, didn't read all the posts, but I use Weston Am Pro 20 monitors. They let in ambience while still producing bass frequencies. Best IEMs that I've ever used.

That's fine; but if there are no amps and the band is behind the FOH, I fail to see how the "ambience" helps.

 

[bucephylus]

Unfortunately, the real the issue appears to be that the FOH mix sucks

(Edit: the child in me is delighted to have an appropriate reason to use to poop emoji)

Yeah, that may be the case. I suppose it's a starting point.

That's why one of my points was that if the band is going this route, you need a sound person who knows the mix hierarchy in an analytical way, as opposed to winging it. Essentially requires the sound person to know all the tunes at least as intimately as the musicians do. Maybe more so.

 

[bucephylus]

Another thing just to consider: this is a cover band situation 40 - 45 tunes played heel to toe in three sets. I appreciate that in a church setting, everyone can dial this stuff in. But, how many tunes is that sound person responsible for during a service? 8 - 10 maybe in a busy service? Different ballgame than someone walking into a club gig situation. Just saying.

 

[bucephylus]

I appreciate the input; but, please try keeping comments in the realm of useful.

Just saying "the sound guy sucks;" that may feel great posting it; but, yes we have a new guy trying to come up to speed with 50-ish tunes for this next gig. I'm inclined to give him a chance. Yes, one of my points is that the whole band's sound on the gig is riding on him. That is quite frankly a different situation for me than when we were playing the club gigs with amps and the sound guy was doing reinforcement. With this rig, the sound person has the whole deal; and that's new for me and this group. If you are already an expert at this approach and want to come into the discussion, please try not to trivialize it. Thanks.

 

[Meyatch]

When I hear dynamics I'm thinking of playing harder or softer. I'm not sure if that's what you are talking about or if you are talking about boosting the guitar for a solo, or boosting the bass in a hip hop song. A sound person who's never seen you before might miss the first few notes of a guitar solo. As for changing the mix depending on the song, it's not something I've ever done when I ran sound, and it's not something I've expected anyone who's mixed us to do either

 

[pglaser01]

Where is the sound guy running the board from? In front of you? To the side or behind you and occasionally walking around checking levels while you are playing?

From what I "think" you are also describing, since you're new to IEMs, maybe you're still not "used" to the increased isolation? By dynamics are you describing the overall feel you get from what your amps used to give you, and how the sound waves would react in the venue? Sorry just trying to decipher exactly how you are describing dynamics vs. how I would, if you get my drift?

If the isolation is still new and weird to you, and the sound guy is out front of you, any chance of an ambient mic to hear the sound coming out the FOH? It may not be the end all be all, but maybe it'll help you hear what you used to hear without IEMs?

Just a thought....could be wrong but don't know until I asked!

 

[Element Zero]

Is there not a way for all band members to have their own individual mixes? I.E. Aviom or similar devices/apps?

 

[walterw]

I'm not hearing the same sense of dynamics in that mix that I get by monitoring an amp on stage. Don't get the same touch sensitivity.

that just means your mix isn't right. make sure there's no compression in your mix, tweak levels until things sound good and you can hear everything like you want. a couple of ambient mics on stage that you can pipe a little of into your mix will help, as will running stereo so you can pan everybody else a little off-center (lets you hear yourself better without having to have yourself way louder than everybody else.)

it might also mean that your direct tone is not one that you're liking as much as you should; do what it takes to fix this so that your bass sounds right to you in your ears.

Can't hear the actually relevant mix the audience is hearing.

trust me, unless you always spent the whole gig standing out by the soundboard you couldn't before either.

 

[Manticore]

Another thing just to consider: this is a cover band situation 40 - 45 tunes played heel to toe in three sets. I appreciate that in a church setting, everyone can dial this stuff in. But, how many tunes is that sound person responsible for during a service? 8 - 10 maybe in a busy service? Different ballgame than someone walking into a club gig situation. Just saying.

I've been ampless for years now. Not having an amp on stage has never affected the dynamics or the ability of the players to respond to subtle changes; in fact, those I regular play with would tend to agree that going ampless enhances each individual's ability to hear and respond to nuances given a customized mix without sonic clutter and mic bleed from amps on stage.

Once the levels are set in the monitors correctly, whether IEMs or wedges, you should be able to hear very subtle nuances from each player. The size of the venue, the number of songs played, the variety or type of music played nor the size of the band should matter; once the monitors are set properly everyone should be able to hear with clarity. If you can't then you either don't have enough monitor sends to give everyone their own mix or you have not clearly conveyed to whoever is mixing the monitors what you need. As noted above, if you have a digital board, there is no reason why you cannot run your own monitor mix off an ap on your phone.

 

[bucephylus]

I've been ampless for years now. Not having an amp on stage has never affected the dynamics or the ability of the players to respond to subtle changes; in fact, those I regular play with would tend to agree that going ampless enhances each individual's ability to hear and respond to nuances given a customized mix without sonic clutter and mic bleed from amps on stage.

Once the levels are set in the monitors correctly, whether IEMs or wedges, you should be able to hear very subtle nuances from each player. The size of the venue, the number of songs played, the variety or type of music played nor the size of the band should matter; once the monitors are set properly everyone should be able to hear with clarity. If you can't then you either don't have enough monitor sends to give everyone their own mix or you have not clearly conveyed to whoever is mixing the monitors what you need. As noted above, if you have a digital board, there is no reason why you cannot run your own monitor mix off an ap on your phone.

Please explain to me how your condescending post is supposed to be useful. Thanks.

 

[MDBass]

Yeah, that may be the case. I suppose it's a starting point.

That's why one of my points was that if the band is going this route, you need a sound person who knows the mix hierarchy in an analytical way, as opposed to winging it. Essentially requires the sound person to know all the tunes at least as intimately as the musicians do. Maybe more so.

This just isn't true though; like I said, I can give you a great FOH mix without ever hearing your music before.

Pro sound engineers to this multiple times a night every night of the week.

You just need to know how to give all of the instruments their space to speak in the mix; an engineer might do some volume riding of the main melody instrument (lead vocal, guitar solo, etc.) but handling dynamic changes between sections/songs, and tonal changes between sections/songs, is entirely on the band members.

 

[bucephylus]

that just means your mix isn't right. make sure there's no compression in your mix, tweak levels until things sound good and you can hear everything like you want. a couple of ambient mics on stage that you can pipe a little of into your mix will help, as will running stereo so you can pan everybody else a little off-center (lets you hear yourself better without having to have yourself way louder than everybody else.)

it might also mean that your direct tone is not one that you're liking as much as you should; do what it takes to fix this so that your bass sounds right to you in your ears.

trust me, unless you always spent the whole gig standing out by the soundboard you couldn't before either.

No, but, I could hear a stage mix, and relied on sound folks to capture that.

Also, I've already stated there are no amps on stage. How do ambient stage mics help supply stage mix with no amps?

 

[bucephylus]

This just isn't true though; like I said, I can give you a great FOH mix without ever hearing your music before.

Pro sound engineers to this multiple times a night every night of the week.

You just need to know how to give all of the instruments their space to speak in the mix; an engineer might do some volume riding of the main melody instrument (lead vocal, guitar solo, etc.) but handling dynamic changes between sections/songs, and tonal changes between sections/songs, is entirely on the band members.

Again, we are playing local clubs. Pay is about $70 per player. If you know of any "pro sound folks" in Tucson interested in that gig, let me know. Sure I've also done many gigs with pro sound folks. I've been gigging for almost 50 years and have been on all kinds of stages. Just stating condescending stuff about this gig, that you know almost zip about isn't helping me out. Thanks, anyhow.

 

[bucephylus]

Is there not a way for all band members to have their own individual mixes? I.E. Aviom or similar devices/apps?

Sorry, I thought I stated in the OP that, yes, we are using independent mixes. Mine is clear as a bell. I'm simply saying that while I can hear what I have dialed in, that mix isn't what is actually going out front, and which I am used to responding to with my playing levels with a stage mix centered sound. Sorry if I sound frustrated, but all I am getting back with many of the responses is that I don't know what I'm talking about. If you cats all think IEM only monitoring with no amps provides the same or better level of interaction, that's just simply not my experience so far.

 

[Element Zero]

Oops I guess I missed that. Hmm... if each person (including yourself) has an individual control over his/her own personal mix, I'm not sure how there's an issue with your/their dynamics. My experiences with IEMs has been nothing short of amazing, although you just can't replicate what a bass amp does behind you, with its pant flapping goodness... sorry it's been frustrating getting pinpointed help on here. Hope you and your band get it worked out. Good luck sir.

 

[walterw]

No, but, I could hear a stage mix, and relied on sound folks to capture that.

the competent sound folks created a FOH mix that sounded right out front, the ambient stage mix had nothing to do with it. if said stage sound seemed pretty balanced to a particular player in a particular spot on stage then that's great for that player.

that said, a good band will have a stage sound that is pretty balanced and that's cool, because it makes it easier for the good FOH guy to get a good mix out front, but the front mix is still entirely dependent on said FOH guy unless you're playing places small enough that you're like not even mic'ing the snare drum and the FOH guy is usually just trying to get the vocals over the guitar amps.

Also, I've already stated there are no amps on stage. How do ambient stage mics help supply stage mix with no amps?

yeah, there's that. is it live drums at least?

the mics can still sort of pick up the general room sound at least, especially if they're more aimed at the crowd.

i play in a couple bands doing bars/clubs and i'm using IEMs and a stage bass amp. the amp is not really needed by me but we have real drums and guitar amps so the folks right up front don't hear that weirdly empty "quiet stage" sound.