Thanks for finding that! I was looking for his post. I remember reading that.
Or in layman's terms: two HPF's simultaneously will attenuate more lows compared to just one HPF.
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Amps with built-in / baked-in HPF
- Thread starter MultiScaleMale
- Start date
Thanks for finding that! I was looking for his post. I remember reading that.
Or in layman's terms: two HPF's simultaneously will attenuate more lows compared to just one HPF.
He was thinking about it, but decided that it will get too complicated. People will want frequencies / slopes / etc and then some other metric. Let the buyer beware.
Based on my experience, it does not. It only affects the signal to the Power Amplifier.
I don't know if there's a way to internally jumper the HPF into the DI signal, but generally, sound techs don't want that anyway. For bass, they want your entire range - they have far better tools to sculp your sound for their system than you do.
I don't know if there's a way to internally jumper the HPF into the DI signal, but generally, sound techs don't want that anyway. For bass, they want your entire range - they have far better tools to sculp your sound for their system than you do.
Most do. And amps with a bass boost button usually turns off that HPF.
Yep. It's called an output transformer..............I think the original SVT had one. Also the SVT-VR.
Mmm kinda.
Best way to fix a bassist that over EQs and blows up the channel is just adding a 30hz steep slope 24dB highpass on the board
if its really bad 40hz at the most.
Same thing helps with recordings and mixdowns. bass is lightly compressed and high pass cleans up the mix, specially people with subs in their listening system. keeps the bass from being wonky and blooming in the sub on certain notes
If this high pass is already built into the DI channel on the head. all the better its a integrated system.
makes it likely to get a decent DI signal. Specially with club systems that are rather limited.
Reducing sub sonic signal from the mix or in a amp helps things out. as far as all these " adjustable" filters and other gimmicks.
its not necessary. As noted if the head is preset at 30 hz and is a steep slope of 24dB then you are done.
as far as a whole bunch of adjustable pedal format filters that are only 12dB then its a complete waste of time and money
min slope is 18dB, 24dB preferred.
anyways point is if the head had HPF already integrated its no big deal for the DI
I've mixed a lot of bassists and none have ever blown up a channel.
But you're right.
Most of the time when you get a weird bass feed, the engineer should ask the musician to run their amp DI as pre-Preamp. If that's not possible, the engineer should use a proper DI and bypass the amp altogether. If the bass player has a specific sound, the FOH can mic the speaker cabinet, which, at close range, is already rolling off substantial sub-sonic bass in the microphone.
Otherwise, even my 45 year old Tangent mixer has an 80Hz rolloff that by about 30Hz, is basically not passing anything resembling sub-sonics or infra-sonics.
In recording, you take the entire signal in and use the superior tools in your preamps and console to make those changes, not some $150 pedal with a vague rotary control.
Funny, every club I've seen up and down the east coast has a rig with high-passes either on the board channels. Then they have high-passes engaged on the power-amplifiers so they don't have to babysit EDM djs...
But you're right.
Most of the time when you get a weird bass feed, the engineer should ask the musician to run their amp DI as pre-Preamp. If that's not possible, the engineer should use a proper DI and bypass the amp altogether. If the bass player has a specific sound, the FOH can mic the speaker cabinet, which, at close range, is already rolling off substantial sub-sonic bass in the microphone.
Otherwise, even my 45 year old Tangent mixer has an 80Hz rolloff that by about 30Hz, is basically not passing anything resembling sub-sonics or infra-sonics.
In recording, you take the entire signal in and use the superior tools in your preamps and console to make those changes, not some $150 pedal with a vague rotary control.
Funny, every club I've seen up and down the east coast has a rig with high-passes either on the board channels. Then they have high-passes engaged on the power-amplifiers so they don't have to babysit EDM djs...
For live music subject to stage and venue resonance, adjustable pedal format filters are a bass player's first line of defense.
They're cheap, well built, small, easy to transport and even easier to use.
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kinda the point. these lame adjustable 12dB effect loop filters are rather worthless trend.
and yes agreed for every soundman that screams murder when it comes to putting a mic on a cab.
it depends on what mic and yes the mic will eliminate some problems. then again even a mic with poor response
can bloom the sub.
as mentioned a pretty generic 30hz 24dB highpass. either on the channel or in the head. pretty much is all that is needed.
and yes agreed for every soundman that screams murder when it comes to putting a mic on a cab.
it depends on what mic and yes the mic will eliminate some problems. then again even a mic with poor response
can bloom the sub.
as mentioned a pretty generic 30hz 24dB highpass. either on the channel or in the head. pretty much is all that is needed.
Hah, yah, no. When I am setting up FOH sound I usually have an RTA running on the channel I'm working on. If I see any kind of lack of signal or ripple that indicates an HPF is in the chain, I immediately run out to the stage and deploy a di that bypasses the HPF.
It doesn't happen that often thankfully. I want the full signal. with a minimum amount of electronics in the way.
It doesn't happen that often thankfully. I want the full signal. with a minimum amount of electronics in the way.
I kinda see where you are coming from, insightful point.
If you are open minded to a contrary opinion: The way I look at it, HPF is just a type of EQ, and different players are going to have different preferences, so that is where the adjustable HPF comes in handy. For example, you really like the sound of -24db/octave below 30hz. That's cool for you, but maybe for me, I want to tame the fundamentals on my E and A strings, so to achieve -12db at 40hz I use a HPF at 80hz, -12db/octave, because I like that sound. And lots of pro audio equipment has HPF in the 80-120hz range, so I don't think I'm crazy or alone in that preference.
The types of HPF's and LPF's most of us are raving about on TalkBass aren't "subsonic rumble filters to protect against the bassist blowing out the channel" because as you correctly point out, the PA already has that protection. Rather, we are talking about tone-shaping EQ pedals. Having a milder slope (-12db/octave or even -6db/octave in the case of the beloved Noble preamp) and/or an adjustable "knee" frequency makes them more versatile as tone-shaping effects.
You're referring to FOH. I'm referring to the sound on the stage reacting to room acoustics.
Also, if I want my FOH tone to reflect my Ampeg tone and not a full_range FOH tone, you'll get what I give you, it's my bass effect, Just like @JimmyM. Do you take the guitar tone before the effects?
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Does your head explode if the perp is using a MusicMan bass with the three band onboard preamp?
I kinda see where you are coming from, insightful point.
If you are open minded to a contrary opinion: The way I look at it, HPF is just a type of EQ, and different players are going to have different preferences, so that is where the adjustable HPF comes in handy. For example, you really like the sound of -24db/octave below 30hz. That's cool for you, but maybe for me, I want to tame the fundamentals on my E and A strings, so to achieve -12db at 40hz I use a HPF at 80hz, -12db/octave, because I like that sound. And lots of pro audio equipment has HPF in the 80-120hz range, so I don't think I'm crazy or alone in that preference.
The types of HPF's and LPF's most of us are raving about on TalkBass aren't "subsonic rumble filters to protect against the bassist blowing out the channel" because as you correctly point out, the PA already has that protection. Rather, we are talking about tone-shaping EQ pedals. Having a milder slope (-12db/octave or even -6db/octave in the case of the beloved Noble preamp) and/or an adjustable "knee" frequency makes them more versatile as tone-shaping effects.
Everybody got their thing for sure.
depends.
If you have to roll way up to 80hz to get the tone you like.
Something i was going to mention earlier.
could be very well since that slope isnt as steep. to reject the boom you dont like. youd have to use a relatively high setting. like 80hz.
problem is it effects the pass band or what you want to hear as well.
with steep slope you might only need a 40/50 hz setting to reduce the bloom you dont like. and it would not effect the passband as much.
80 to 120hz is definitely not crazy, its very useful for other things like vocals or acoustic instruments even guitar which is a octave higher
80 hz totally makes sense to me with a low 12dB slope. youd have to use higher settings to get the rejection needed.
people mention 30, 40 , 80 hz preferences. then again the actual slope being used has a huge impact of what one person perceives or is familiar with.
im definately not some huge expert and dont care to argue for sure like some other default experts. Im just incredibly familiar with filters for live sound, recording and subtractive synthesis. just very aware of what slopes do what
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You are correct; I want to hear the effect's sound on my tone. I don't want to shell out for an effect that I can't hear it do anything. If an effect doesn't affect the frequency range of my bass, I don't want to buy it. I have no interest in a 30hz HPF because my bass only goes down to 40hz (and the PA has built-in protection).
Hope that makes sense; do you see where I'm coming from?it makes alot of sense.
then again majority of reasons to use a high pass is to not hear it.
Its like a good compression you shouldn't know its there.
The high pass is mainly to reduce cone excursion of the speaker system. likewise reduce heat and stress on a amplifier.
specially a half bridge class D topology. anybody with a brain would integrate a steep filter built in to the amp.
and id say yes most of them are not interested to tell you its there. soon as you tell somebody it is.
you instantly get guys that will say its causing a issue with there tone LOL
If your looking to tame the lows and for it to be completely obvious a 12dB slope will do it for sure.
then again id assume just a basic multi band EQ would probably be just as useful. anything which allows bass cuts.
if your looking for tone shaping or things to be more audible. specially since they allow certain notched cuts. likewise typically have a wide Q for boost and a sharper Q for cut.
and again more useful since the rejection is steep compared to basic 6 dB tone controls
then again majority of reasons to use a high pass is to not hear it.
Its like a good compression you shouldn't know its there.
The high pass is mainly to reduce cone excursion of the speaker system. likewise reduce heat and stress on a amplifier.
specially a half bridge class D topology. anybody with a brain would integrate a steep filter built in to the amp.
and id say yes most of them are not interested to tell you its there. soon as you tell somebody it is.
you instantly get guys that will say its causing a issue with there tone LOL
If your looking to tame the lows and for it to be completely obvious a 12dB slope will do it for sure.
then again id assume just a basic multi band EQ would probably be just as useful. anything which allows bass cuts.
if your looking for tone shaping or things to be more audible. specially since they allow certain notched cuts. likewise typically have a wide Q for boost and a sharper Q for cut.
and again more useful since the rejection is steep compared to basic 6 dB tone controls
LMAO!!!
No, actually. I just take a DI of it and call it a day - that's it's sound, that's all I get...
No, actually. I just take a DI of it and call it a day - that's it's sound, that's all I get...
Does your head explode if the perp is using a MusicMan bass with the three band onboard preamp?
If you're going to be an a-hole about it, I'll take a DI, whatever you "give" me, and a mic from the cabinet and I'll decide what goes out to FOH based on what I hear in the FOH. If what you give me sucks in FOH, it won't be the primary source of your bass tone.
... I'm not going to stand there and argue, and channels are plenty. Likewise I'm not going to get into trouble with the venue for providing poopy bass tone to the FOH. ;-)
Don't compare yourself to a guitar player. You know very well that micing your speaker is going to roll off most of the meat from that sound, even if you use a bass-friendly microphone. Compared to a DI signal from your bass, your sound to the FOH system will lack bass.
... I'm not going to stand there and argue, and channels are plenty. Likewise I'm not going to get into trouble with the venue for providing poopy bass tone to the FOH. ;-)
Don't compare yourself to a guitar player. You know very well that micing your speaker is going to roll off most of the meat from that sound, even if you use a bass-friendly microphone. Compared to a DI signal from your bass, your sound to the FOH system will lack bass.
I've been playing since '65. No expert but have done FOH sound as well. I know what sounds good. I use HPF as my effect. Deal.
Sure, you can see how I'd deal. I'm not going to take a hit on the venue that books me to do sound because you insist on thinning out your bass tone to the FOH feed. I don't care what you do on stage as long as you don't overpower the FOH, as an FOH engineer.
...and how long you've been doing things has absolutely zero effect on how I feel about any of it. In fact, I find most of the younger players are much better educated and willing to go with whatever sounds good to the FOH as long as it doesn't affect their on stage monitoring.
...and how long you've been doing things has absolutely zero effect on how I feel about any of it. In fact, I find most of the younger players are much better educated and willing to go with whatever sounds good to the FOH as long as it doesn't affect their on stage monitoring.
