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Another Church players topic-Post: amplification
- Thread starter dunamis
- Start date
This reminds me of someting that happened to me at a church I attended about 15 years ago. The church had moved from banquet hall type building to a traditional church. There were "some" issues with the acoustics of the sanctuary but nothing insurmountable. Unfortunately, there was more emphasis on asthetics than functionality. So wall treatments (even curtains) were not an option.
The first thing to go was the acoustic drums. We got a set of Simmons (yuck!). Then they started saying that the guitars (bass and electric) were WAY too loud. After turning down so far that I couldn't hear myself while sitting next to the amp, I tried an experiment. I was using a preamp/amp setup and so was the guitar player. So I built some little wedges with one 8" speaker each for myself and the guitar player to put on the floor in front of us. When we tried it out, the sound person (who was actually one of the singers promoted beyond her level of incompetence), kept saying the bass was too loud. No matter how far I turned down, she would say I was too loud. Finally I turned the volume on my bass completely off and pretended to play. Guess what - still too loud!!!
One by one starting with the horn section most of the musicians quit. I'm pretty thick headed but I finally got the hint. I think I left a month or two after that incident, which basically left them with a piano player and an acoustic guitar (probably all they really wanted).
Ralf
rockstarbassist
Inactive
That's the saddest thing that happens with things I used to do back in the day, when I'd sub in or something.
You could turn OFF, pretend to play, and yeah- too loud. Some people...
You could turn OFF, pretend to play, and yeah- too loud. Some people...
We have a seasonal attendance change here in the 1000 island region of new york.Winter head count 20ish. summer retreat maybe 100. I play a gibson triumph.And the only equipment we need is MACKIE. Powered speakers.Mixer,and most importantly powered SUB....HOLY THUMP... 3 mic's, V-drums,fender rhodes keyboard,bass,accoustic guitar
This set up works great.And the looks really fit.
PRAISE THE LORD AND PASS THE TUNER.......ALG
This set up works great.And the looks really fit.
PRAISE THE LORD AND PASS THE TUNER.......ALG
At my current church, we do something similar once a month for the Saturday night service. It's kind of hard to describe, but we have a large lobby with a sunken area where we set up tables and chairs (like a cafe). Once a month we hold the Saturday service in the lobby using a mixer, powered speakers and just our amps. We all love it. It's a much better experience having all 70-100 chairs filled with worshipers rather than having 70-100 people scattered around in a sanctuary that holds 400. The worship is more intimate and we are not distracted by monitor issues.
Ralf
Agree on all points. We have a combination of IEM's and amps at my church. I've quit using the IEM's completely since I got rid of my Eden gear in favor of Genz Benz, mostly because the GB gear I have is just so much easier to transport. I use a Neo-pak with either a Neox 212 or 112, depending on my mood and how awake I am when I have to load up at home. The 112 of course is easier to move, and has plenty of volume, but the 212 at equal volume has a better feel on stage, and it's not much more trouble to loud in. Like you, I change things up a lot depending on the song. The ability to overdrive the tube really lets me do some of the fun, rock type songs on my VJ. It sounds great with a pick. When I really want versatility, I take the 1200 and make use of channel switching on the fly via the footswitch. But most Sundays its the Neo-pak and 112. It's just a great church-rig. If GB ever comes out with a 112 combo with a Neo-Pak in it (HELLO HASBEEN!
), I'd be hard pressed to not buy it.Funny thing about sound levels. Our previous music director insisted everyone use in-ears. When he left, some of us starting bringing in our amps. The sound guy at our church, a middle-aged man, complained about us being to loud all the-time, always asking everyone with amps to turn down. He even made a statement during rehearsal one time that the only thing that matters is the audience sound, and we should all sacrifice to make sure that is good. Obviously, this guy is not a musician and has never played anything on stage. He just couldn't grasp that stage sound affects inspiration, confidence, the groove, etc.
Anyway, he recently decided he had to take a break from his duties...stress or something like that. One of our 17 year old kids who runs sound in the youth department now handles the main church as well. He never asks us to turn down, and neither has anyone else that I'm aware of. The guy before was just so used to everyone using IEM's that he felt like he had no control if he couldn't completely kill an instrument in the house. He'd freak out if he wasn't in complete control of everyone. He had just never run sound in an environment where you have to deal with stage volume. Even the drums are completely enclosed, which is nice for recording, so they have to be in a monitor somewhere to hear them.
I feel for you playing on that wooden stage.
We just did a praise-night at an old high school gym. Playing on a raised wooden stage was quite a learning experience for me.
We are in the early stages of building a mutli-purpose building/gym to use for services. Its to have a raised concrete stage about 40'x20' and full gym that will seat 650.
I have been assured by the building committee that they are going to hire sound engineers from the early stages to get the room and sound system to match.
turindev
Commercial User
- Jul 1, 2005
- 514
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- Builder, m7bassworks.com
My current setup is an
Ampeg B1RE -> Epifani PS112.
Just migrated from a Carvin R210 combo that I have used for 3 years or so. It worked quite well but the tone wasnt exactly what I was looking for. Got a ridiculous deal on the Ampeg head ($300 new) so I decided to give it a try. I'll run it and the Epifani for a bit and see how it goes.. if the ampeg doesnt cut it ill be looking for something else in the same ballpark. I will probably add another 112 later, but I really dont need it now and portability is the key with my small car and family of 4.
Ampeg B1RE -> Epifani PS112.
Just migrated from a Carvin R210 combo that I have used for 3 years or so. It worked quite well but the tone wasnt exactly what I was looking for. Got a ridiculous deal on the Ampeg head ($300 new) so I decided to give it a try. I'll run it and the Epifani for a bit and see how it goes.. if the ampeg doesnt cut it ill be looking for something else in the same ballpark. I will probably add another 112 later, but I really dont need it now and portability is the key with my small car and family of 4.
This weekend I'll be using a Traynor YBA200 into an older Yorkville 4x10, but I'll have massive PA support and a good mixer/engineer. I think there's somewhere around 10,000 watts support. The sound level in the band area is quite low, considering mic'd drums (in a massive plexiglass enclosure), 2 mic'd guitarists, 3 singers...lots of fun
I've used my Eden CXC110 at church, DI to the house, and it worked perfectly. Once in a while, my sound guy would have to ask me to bring the stage volume down a little bit, because there were times during praise when I cranked it up just a little bit too much.
My new church (just started there a week or two ago) has an old Peavey amp that's seen much better days. I'll be subbing there periodically on bass, and when I play, I plan on bringing in my Eden, and depending on whether or not I can DI into the house, I'll bring my D112XLT. I might scare a few people, but I'll rely on my sound man to reel me in.
Here's something quite wild ... about 10 years ago, I had a bass player at my old church who had an old Carvin 600 watt head, He had four (4) Carvin cabinets - two (2) cabs with 15"s, 1 cab 4X10, and 1 cab with an 18". Just looking at the cabs would scare people. He'd never get the amp over 1 or 2, but just loved the look on people's faces.
My new church (just started there a week or two ago) has an old Peavey amp that's seen much better days. I'll be subbing there periodically on bass, and when I play, I plan on bringing in my Eden, and depending on whether or not I can DI into the house, I'll bring my D112XLT. I might scare a few people, but I'll rely on my sound man to reel me in.
Here's something quite wild ... about 10 years ago, I had a bass player at my old church who had an old Carvin 600 watt head, He had four (4) Carvin cabinets - two (2) cabs with 15"s, 1 cab 4X10, and 1 cab with an 18". Just looking at the cabs would scare people. He'd never get the amp over 1 or 2, but just loved the look on people's faces.
I use my Portabass 250 into a Yamaha 15" monitor that's left over now that we've switched to Hearback in-ears.
Gonna be tough Sat night and Sunday. Just hearbacks (gone back to these) with the audio from the DVD playing. A click is cool to keep up with the DVD, but I'm less than stoked about the audio - especially b/c it's pumped into the FOH PA too.
Currently, I play a Warwick Thumb 5 Bolt-on and, on occasion, a Schecter Diamond Series Custom 4 (think Stingray with more bottom) through either a SWR Workingman's 10 or 15. However, a major change will take place as soon as I receive my new Euphonic Audio iAmp Micro 300 and the companion Wizzy 10!
Keep God First!
A Groove is a terrible thing to waste.
Keep God First!
A Groove is a terrible thing to waste.
If GB ever comes out with a 112 combo with a Neo-Pak in it (HELLO HASBEEN!
GB makes the NeoX400, which is a 112 w/tweeter combo that I used in church until we went direct. Killer bottom from a small map that weighs 65 pounds. Wattage is in the 350 range, more with an extension cab. If you like GB, you'll love it.
Our church went to the "clean stage" idea a year ago, and I have mixed emotions about it. The sound from the in-ears is great, but I still miss the feeling of having an amp behind me and the ambiance of sound moving air, not just for bass but for everything. Part of the reason for going direct, we were told, was to contain stage volume. However, the problem for the rhythm section was NOT the volume of our amps - it was the volume of the horn section and having the choir mics cranked up so far that everything bled into them. And that hasn't changed.
Stage volume is still high, even though all the electric instruments are being fed back to the horns and singers through two wedges and two overhead monitors. The choir mics are cranked so high that every whisper and page turn sounds like a freight train. I have to keep my IEM cranked to block out the sound from the wedges and, sometimes,from the house. Add to this that although they spent $5 million on the church, they didn't put enough money into the sound system. Yes, we have 16 channels in our monitor feed, but eight of them are for vocals. Although we have horns, wodwinds and a small string section, they don't come through the monitor mix. So If I want to hear them, I have to leave the choir feed wide open.
I don't understand why the onstage volume from the monitors is still so high, and I don't understand why they couldn't have spent an extra $100K to set up the IEMs better. I won't even go into the horror that happens when the substitute soundman runs things.
Now that I've complained, here's my setup: Lakland 55-94 and an NS Design WAV4 EUB. I run both through a Radial BassBone, which goes straight to the board. The WAV has a K&K Pure Preamp before the Bone as an impedance matcher. Before going direct, I used a Genz-Benz NeoX 400 with a line out to the PA.
Stage volume is still high, even though all the electric instruments are being fed back to the horns and singers through two wedges and two overhead monitors. The choir mics are cranked so high that every whisper and page turn sounds like a freight train. I have to keep my IEM cranked to block out the sound from the wedges and, sometimes,from the house. Add to this that although they spent $5 million on the church, they didn't put enough money into the sound system. Yes, we have 16 channels in our monitor feed, but eight of them are for vocals. Although we have horns, wodwinds and a small string section, they don't come through the monitor mix. So If I want to hear them, I have to leave the choir feed wide open.
I don't understand why the onstage volume from the monitors is still so high, and I don't understand why they couldn't have spent an extra $100K to set up the IEMs better. I won't even go into the horror that happens when the substitute soundman runs things.
Now that I've complained, here's my setup: Lakland 55-94 and an NS Design WAV4 EUB. I run both through a Radial BassBone, which goes straight to the board. The WAV has a K&K Pure Preamp before the Bone as an impedance matcher. Before going direct, I used a Genz-Benz NeoX 400 with a line out to the PA.
rockstarbassist
Inactive
My sentiments exactly.
It's always the drums or bass or guitar that are too loud, even when you DON'T have amps on stage and the drums are electric (like in my case)!
People don't realize the acoustic instruments pick up BIG time on all the red-hot vocal mics, along WITH the mics they're already being used to amplify the instrument! Nuts!
But we're having our first practice w/ the Avioms tomorrow before Sunday.
Should be interesting.
It works great! If it didn't, I'd jut bring my portabass 12" cab, but the Yamaha 15" definitely sounds better.
we've switched to Hearback in-ears.
Cool... though I do not play in church I do help run sound at are services, we use the hearback system as well, acoustic drums inside a fully enclosed drumcage, 2 guitarists... one plays a Fender 64 Vibroverb RI 1x15 50 watt tube amp and a crate acoustic amp for the acoustic stuff and the other uses a Fender Stage 160 2x12 160 watt solid state amp. Hammond c3 organ with is leslie, the leslie and both guitarist amps are miked and of course so are the drums as well. Yamaha s90 keyboard, all musician's except the organ and keyboard player use are hearback system.
Now the bass players they have it nice in IMO, they go direct into a Avalon U5... I think every church that is serious about good sound should have one of these even for a keyboard or other instruments, they have many uses. They plug into the U5 on setting 2 of course
and the gain is up to about the 3rd to 5th click depending on the type of bass and if it active or passive. The output goes straight from there into the board with a little extra eq. for flavor and a pinch of compression when needed before it heads out to the mains... are EV QRX cluster above the pulpit with two 2x18 sub's on either side of the platform. I might also add the bassist has a raised platform which he or she can stand or sit on that has 4 buttkickers in it so not only do they hear their bass in there shure in-ears they also feel the sound from their bass up under them and the bass players like it a lot, we have had bassist out of town and out of state praise how they liked the setup so much when they played at are church and even some have tried to copy what we use when they got back to their home church.... I think that's cool, because I know for myself and other bassist out there, most of the time esp. in a "church" setting the bassist is looked over too many times, at least with my findings. Bass is the glue that makes everything else stick together!We used to use a ole crappy $30 direct box, me and the other soundguy had been begging the pastor and asst. pastor for funds for the U5 for at least 1 1/2-2yrs and we finally got one about a month ago and it has totally changed the way the bass sounds and the bass players can hear themselves better and you can tell because they can really get into the songs and a try to do solo's over fills and other parts to the worship music it's so clean and sounds awesome... I love to just go up the the church and plug in a set of can's into the U5 and go to town with my bass, it sounds awesome by itself and so sweet with a band, I am seriously thinking about buying one to use for a preamp and get a good poweramp and not even mess with anything else, this thing sounds that good to me.
Any other TBers use a U5 in church or have any simlar setup? Please share I like to hear what others are doing and using... I would be willing to try anything if it made the bass and everything else sounds better esp. in the house. We have a lot of older folks in are church that about had a heart attack when we got the sub's they liked the other speakers but they knew what was in store for them when we put those sub's on the platform, I knew we would have some teeth and glasses shaken. We have one older man in the church that claims he has had a heart attack during service because the bass is so loud and now he brings a db meter to church, it is so funny to watch him during service look down at the meter on the pew and see what the db level is at, I wish it would say "tilt" on it, he wears hearing aids and he needs to take them out because IIRC they do not reproduce sounds levels and and frequency's like the human ear should... maybe for the few like less than 10 people out of the over 600 members that come to are church complain so I guess that is a good ratio
, I guess I need to go by a sporting goods store and buy a bucket of earplugs and just set them out and when they want to walk up during service and complain I will say have a set of these and go talk to pastor, when he says to turn iit down than I will, I answer to him. To be continued...
Peace,
