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Another Red Flag On The Ampeg PF-500.....
- Thread starter shoot-r
- Start date
I have to admit that I missed that part of the post. I was dwelling on the "ton" of broken PF series amps and extended warranty.
This is even more convoluted. GC caries a product they know is unreliable. They tell customers the product is unreliable. The customer purchases anyway? I have doubts about how often this happens.
Still begs the question; why does GC carry a product they know is unreliable? The answer must be $$$.
Why would anyone purchase a product after being told it is not reliable? My guess is that most would not. I doubt all GC stores are telling the customer they are about to purchase an unreliable product.
And it does seem GC would be reluctant to sell the additional warranty for fear of losing money; or they researched how many of the amps fail while in mfg's warranty and realize they would rarely have to pay / replace.
People will buy because of the name and sound while working, trusting a salesperson's word is far from universal when purchasing.
I think that if the product was really unreliable, it would be costing Loud too much money to support and they would have pull it from the market. They seem to be selling boatloads of them and there are a lot of happy customers out there. I don't know what the actual failure rate is, nobody does but Loud. But it must be at an acceptable level and within MI industry standards. Those with problems are vocal about it. And they should be! There are also many more satisfied users out there.
If you install new set of brakes in your car and drive with your foot on the brake, they aren't going to last long. You have to know how to drive. Knowing that there may be issues, it helps if take a conservative, common sense approach when driving the amp. Don't dime the low end EQ and the volume play a long string of 64th notes. That will tax any amp. Some more than others it seems. Yes, despite precautions, I know that things still can happen. But when it comes to these type of amps, you need to get one with a lot more power in reserve than you need. When you push it hard, it will have what is needed in reserve to deliver and won't be driven beyond its limit.
If you install new set of brakes in your car and drive with your foot on the brake, they aren't going to last long. You have to know how to drive. Knowing that there may be issues, it helps if take a conservative, common sense approach when driving the amp. Don't dime the low end EQ and the volume play a long string of 64th notes. That will tax any amp. Some more than others it seems. Yes, despite precautions, I know that things still can happen. But when it comes to these type of amps, you need to get one with a lot more power in reserve than you need. When you push it hard, it will have what is needed in reserve to deliver and won't be driven beyond its limit.
Here we go again with the user error nonsense and what do you mean by "these type of amps? Class d? If so I am calling BS
User error is valid and not nonsense. Give me an amp and I'll find a way to blow it. Players need to be aware of what the limits of an amp are and how to use it. More importantly, manufacturers need put better protection into their products to prevent them from self destructing.
There was CD called Studio Reference Disk that a lot of people used to test speakers in recording studios. I recall an article in Mix Magazine describing that when they played a particular track through speaker cabinets from different manufacturers at a trade show, the drivers blew, one ofter the next. The manufacturers never anticipated that their cabs would be driven in such a demanding way. User's have a knack for finding ways of doing things that the designers never anticipate.
Manufacturers are adopting relatively new evolving technologies and there are growing pains. No question of that. Despite the potential problems, players are lining up to buy these products because they have a use for them. All I'm saying is that you should use these amps in a conservative way. By "these sort of amps" I was referring to any transistorized amp from any company that is being offered at the low end of the price scale and offering a lot.
There was CD called Studio Reference Disk that a lot of people used to test speakers in recording studios. I recall an article in Mix Magazine describing that when they played a particular track through speaker cabinets from different manufacturers at a trade show, the drivers blew, one ofter the next. The manufacturers never anticipated that their cabs would be driven in such a demanding way. User's have a knack for finding ways of doing things that the designers never anticipate.
Manufacturers are adopting relatively new evolving technologies and there are growing pains. No question of that. Despite the potential problems, players are lining up to buy these products because they have a use for them. All I'm saying is that you should use these amps in a conservative way. By "these sort of amps" I was referring to any transistorized amp from any company that is being offered at the low end of the price scale and offering a lot.
Yep. The two PF heads that died on me did so when EQ was set at noon and the master and gain were both less than 10 o'clock. These amps certainly weren't being driven beyond belief. Heck, they wouldn't even be considered loud enough for even a small bar gig the way I had them.
That's the reason why I didn't go with the PF series of heads. I had just gotten rid of my SVT and was interested in replacing my Markbass with a new toy. They were at the top of my list because I wanted to stay with Ampeg (albeit, in a smaller package). Long story short, I switched to Aguilar and I haven't looked back.
I suspect that the failures are not caused by the user operating the amps in a manner that causes stress to a component. I won't speculate on what the actual cause of failures of these great sounding amps is. I would prefer to hear what Loud Tech engineering found while analyzing warranty failures, so I could take preventive measures to ensure my amp does not let me down.
GC is not self insuring these. There's an insurance company behind those warranties that will pay GC a certain amount per incident. Just like if I want to sponsor a golf tournament and have a payout of $10K for a hole in one at a particular hole. An insurance company is covering that for a small price based on the odds. In this case, it's an overall odds calculation and not based on any one particular product. So, for every $100 warranty GC sells, it probably pockets 80 to 90% and pays the insurance company their fee.
Or the designers were constrained by the finance guys. The design is usually dictated by the bottom line which can be no end to frustration to the engineers.
The worst is when you have a good design and they come back insisting that you have to incorporate a sub standard part into the design that you know is going to be trouble down the road.
And there is no question that some of the PF failures aren't due to abuse by the player.
It would be really interesting to see a summary of all the amp failures that the talkbass community has encountered, including make, model number, what the problem was, how customer service dealt with it, and how the amp performed long term. Knowing about the success stories would also be good.
The worst is when you have a good design and they come back insisting that you have to incorporate a sub standard part into the design that you know is going to be trouble down the road.
And there is no question that some of the PF failures aren't due to abuse by the player.
It would be really interesting to see a summary of all the amp failures that the talkbass community has encountered, including make, model number, what the problem was, how customer service dealt with it, and how the amp performed long term. Knowing about the success stories would also be good.
Well, I have a PF-500, rev C, which I received in a trade. Sweet sounding amp, and while I have only gigged it a handful of times, I've never had a problem with it. In fact, the last gig was an outdoor festival last month on a very large stage. I really didn't have enough rig (running it with 2 SVT 210's) but we were closing the show and I didn't want to bring the SVT for a one hour set. Bottom line, I pushed the PF-500 harder than ever and it performed extremely well. If I had tried to get more out of it, I could have quite possibly toasted it, but who knows? It's about knowing the limitations of your equipment. Just thought I'd put a positive post on the PF-500 out there for a change.
Under this theory, all amps would have a similar failure rate. It seems to be fairly well established that the PF 500 has a higher than industry standard fail rate. Even Ampeg technical support admits they have had some "growing pains".
Anecdotal evidence like this tells me it is not operator error. http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/ampeg-pf-series-amps-=-ok-buy-now-1013831/index4.html#post14898332
Hey this is totally out of hand and not what this thread is about!
You're right, my bad. Carry on
The list IS longer - Mesa Boogie has had a 5 year fully transferrable warranty for a LONG time, and has been known to fix amps out of warranty, too... Same thing with Genz-Benz, except it's 3 years, IIRC...
- georgestrings
It's hard to beat the Acoustic Image lifetime transferable warranty:
http://www.acousticimg.com/#/warranty
http://www.acousticimg.com/#/warranty
Extended warranty....
So you buy one..... then what does GC do if the product can't be serviced (no parts, no info, whatever), and the manufacturer isn't interested in fixing it, even though they will get paid....??
Calling BS?
Arai may need to know more than he/she does.... Class-D are different, and have entirely different ways to have problems that are not present in a class-AB etc amp.
Overdriving a class-D has quite different consequences than overdriving a class-AB, consequences which depend on the type of modulator, and the sorts of protection used.
And... you WILL overdrive the amp.... basically doesn't matter how much power you have, likely you will overdrive it regardless. The argument is just about how MUCH you overdrive it, how much time it spends being overdriven. Transients are much bigger than you think.
If the amp has a bad response to that, you may have un-good thngs happen, immediately, or eventually. Or you just may have bad sound, or cut-out for a few seconds (7-PRO anyone?). There are ways to deal with those issues, but it depends on the amp design.
I have NO idea if or how LOUD deals with overdriving, or indeed if that is the cause , or one of the causes, of their problems.
One thing I DO know.... Even though class-AB was, and is, a pretty mature technology, many companies did not or still do not deal well with user faults, primarily shorts in the speaker leads, and overdriving. Virtually ALL companies have had products that were not well protected.
So.... If a mature technology has protection failures, what about a new one? One such as class-D?
Good engineers consider these things. But in some cases, it is thought that particular products "should not" have problems with certain faults, for whatever reason.... For instance, a combo with no extension speaker jack may be considered not to "need" short circuit protection.... and that may be true, or not true. Leave out something like that at your peril..... someone will show it up as a bad decision.... and after that first one, there will be others.
So, yes, there are very good reasons for suggesting that specifically class-D need to be sized larger than class-AB.
So you buy one..... then what does GC do if the product can't be serviced (no parts, no info, whatever), and the manufacturer isn't interested in fixing it, even though they will get paid....??
Calling BS?
Arai may need to know more than he/she does.... Class-D are different, and have entirely different ways to have problems that are not present in a class-AB etc amp.
Overdriving a class-D has quite different consequences than overdriving a class-AB, consequences which depend on the type of modulator, and the sorts of protection used.
And... you WILL overdrive the amp.... basically doesn't matter how much power you have, likely you will overdrive it regardless. The argument is just about how MUCH you overdrive it, how much time it spends being overdriven. Transients are much bigger than you think.
If the amp has a bad response to that, you may have un-good thngs happen, immediately, or eventually. Or you just may have bad sound, or cut-out for a few seconds (7-PRO anyone?). There are ways to deal with those issues, but it depends on the amp design.
I have NO idea if or how LOUD deals with overdriving, or indeed if that is the cause , or one of the causes, of their problems.
One thing I DO know.... Even though class-AB was, and is, a pretty mature technology, many companies did not or still do not deal well with user faults, primarily shorts in the speaker leads, and overdriving. Virtually ALL companies have had products that were not well protected.
So.... If a mature technology has protection failures, what about a new one? One such as class-D?
Good engineers consider these things. But in some cases, it is thought that particular products "should not" have problems with certain faults, for whatever reason.... For instance, a combo with no extension speaker jack may be considered not to "need" short circuit protection.... and that may be true, or not true. Leave out something like that at your peril..... someone will show it up as a bad decision.... and after that first one, there will be others.
So, yes, there are very good reasons for suggesting that specifically class-D need to be sized larger than class-AB.
Acoustic Image customer service is some of the best in the business. I had a problem with a used one I had purchased a while back(it turned out to be a problem with the fuse holder), and they fixed it for free no questions asked.
