Another Shooting

[tZer]

I'm not convinced that anything would have achieved any particular outcome - reality just isn't easily predictable like that.

My experience tells me that you're better off:

1) Hanging up on your girlfriend
2) Calling police
3) Walking (not running) to the most public, well lit, occupied area you can find.
4) Wait for the police arriving shortly.

And what if Zimmerman was simply out to shoot someone?

Your methodology seems to say "take your chances - give the benefit of doubt to this stranger who is clearly after you and who you have no reason to believe is NOT dangerous"

Really? Slow down, become a more accessible target, make yourself more vulnerable to immediate harm or abduction?

That just sounds like a predator's dream come true.

IF (and I am not saying this is the case) but IF Zimmerman were actually a predator hunting for a victim using the guise of being a neighborhood watch captain in a gated community - and had Treyvon done as you suggested and NOT run (there's no guarantee that he could have gotten 911 on the line before a bullet prevented him from continuing to live) - then Z could have simply popped him and rolled on. There wouldn't be all the other 911 calls that heard (what I would tell my kids to do) someone running for their life screaming "help!!" There would have been even less evidence of anything because in that story, Zimmerman wouldn't have even had to leave his car and could have easily claimed "car-jacking gone wrong" - "protecting my rolling castle" - "I was just going to say 'hi' and he went crazy so I had to shoot him"...

At least by running, Treyvon aroused a lot of attention, got a lot of people to call 911 and there is now, in light of the fact that you clearly couldn't rely on the police to do their job properly, at least some evidence of what happened.

Had Treyvon taken his chances, as you suggest, this could have all been a non-event (I doubt it) - or worse, it could have been a "good shooting" because of all the additional stuff Zimmerman could have claimed by staying in his car.

 

[aborgman]

.......and when they do their job, the PEACEFUL protestors will go away

Oh how I wish that were true.

I remember after my friends father was beat to death by two youths for not having a cigarette lighter when they asked (they didn't even bother to steal the money he had on him)... Al Sharpton came to town to protest the injustice of two murderers getting charged with murder.

The police did their job in that case, and it CAUSED the peaceful protesters to show up.

 

[seventhson]

Maybe the city manager knows that he has to walk past the crowd of peaceful protesters outside in order to get home and that's why he looks scared.

Nahhhhh....

Would you please stop...

 

[aborgman]

Well, you seem to have been OK with all that so who am I to second guess all the loose ends and other things that just sound wrong about it all?

Second guess all you'd like. I'm pretty confident that I got to ride in the back of a police car in handcuffs, have my parents pick me up at the station, have a friendly discussion with a magistrate, and write an essay.

But it doesn't convince me that running from people who are obviously not cops and who are obviously after you for something is a bad idea.

I was pretty sure the guy I was running away from was "obviously not a cop" - but I was wrong. He was a non-uniformed cop in an unmarked car.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

I posted this in the other thread (about other cases - now shut down) but thought it might of interest to those hear as an example of when "media bias" and "public outcry" can have a positive effect on the outcome of a situation of apparent injustice:

Murder of Stephen Lawrence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Stephen Lawrence case came to mind once the Trayvon Martin case came to light. The incidents are not the same, but it certainly looks as if the response of the police in London and in Sanford, Florida were very similar.

 

[aborgman]

And what if Zimmerman was simply out to shoot someone?

Then he was going to shoot someone.

If Zimmerman was intent on shooting Martin - standing would have got him shot.

...and running DID get him shot.

Your methodology seems to say "take your chances - give the benefit of doubt to this stranger who is clearly after you and who you have no reason to believe is NOT dangerous"

Really? Slow down, become a more accessible target, make yourself more vulnerable to immediate harm or abduction?

That just sounds like a predator's dream come true.

Put yourself in a PUBLIC place.

Don't behave in a manner that can be misconstrued as criminal.

...and most importantly. CALL THE COPS AND REPORT A SUSPICIOUS PERSON FOLLOWING YOU.

IF (and I am not saying this is the case) but IF Zimmerman were actually a predator hunting for a victim using the guise of being a neighborhood watch captain in a gated community - and had Treyvon done as you suggested and NOT run (there's no guarantee that he could have gotten 911 on the line before a bullet prevented him from continuing to live) - then Z could have simply popped him and rolled on.

...and those ends are different than the current ones for Martin exactly how? How did he protect himself by running?

He didn't. He made himself look more suspicious and put himself in a LESS public place - meaning that there would be LESS witnesses to a crime committed against him.

At least by running, Treyvon aroused a lot of attention, got a lot of people to call 911 and there is now, in light of the fact that you clearly couldn't rely on the police to do their job properly, at least some evidence of what happened.

I think he would've aroused even more attention by calling 911, and knocking on the nearest door and asking for help.

Had Treyvon taken his chances, as you suggest, this could have all been a non-event (I doubt it) - or worse, it could have been a "good shooting" because of all the additional stuff Zimmerman could have claimed by staying in his car.

You're assuming that isn't going to be the outcome anyway. I'm not so sure of that myself.

 

[Phil Smith]

Oh how I wish that were true.

I remember after my friends father was beat to death by two youths for not having a cigarette lighter when they asked (they didn't even bother to steal the money he had on him)... Al Sharpton came to town to protest the injustice of two murderers getting charged with murder.

The police did their job in that case, and it CAUSED the peaceful protesters to show up.

What case was this?

 

[aborgman]

What case was this?

This is the only article I can find on it:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Two 17-year-olds face second-degree murder charges following the death of a disabled man they are accused of beating in a city parking lot. Muskegon County District Judge Edward Farmer Jr. on Monday ordered Donnie Hall of Muskegon Heights and Gary Spencer of Grand Rapids held without bond pending a Jan. 23 preliminary examination. Dennis G. Wadsworth, 49, died three days after being beaten by two attackers Dec. 29. Robbery was ruled out as a motive since Wadsworth had a wallet and cash when found by police. ``It appeared to be a demented sense of fun for these two kids,`` said Brett Gardner, Muskegon County`s chief assistant prosecutor.

This was a 5'4", 140lb, disabled, diabetic with long term alcoholism related health issues who was beaten to death by a couple of teens for fun.

 

[Phil Smith]

Then he was going to shoot someone.

If Zimmerman was intent on shooting Martin - standing would have got him shot.

...and running DID get him shot.

Put yourself in a PUBLIC place.

Don't behave in a manner that can be misconstrued as criminal.

...and most importantly. CALL THE COPS AND REPORT A SUSPICIOUS PERSON FOLLOWING YOU.


...and those ends are different than the current ones for Martin exactly how? How did he protect himself by running?

He didn't. He made himself look more suspicious and put himself in a LESS public place - meaning that there would be LESS witnesses to a crime committed against him.


I think he would've aroused even more attention by calling 911, and knocking on the nearest door and asking for help.



You're assuming that isn't going to be the outcome anyway. I'm not so sure of that myself.

So is a running black person is more suspicious looking than a non running black person?

 

[tZer]

Second guess all you'd like. I'm pretty confident that I got to ride in the back of a police car in handcuffs, have my parents pick me up at the station, have a friendly discussion with a magistrate, and write an essay.



I was pretty sure the guy I was running away from was "obviously not a cop" - but I was wrong. He was a non-uniformed cop in an unmarked car.

I don't dispute any of what you said. The thing is, what you are saying has a gigantic gap in the middle and a lack of followup at the end.

If that cop didn't ID himself properly and led you and your friend to believe you were being pursued by some stranger with ill intent, he was breaking the law - your rights were violated and all of that should have been made right by the magistrate.

You (as you said) chose not to fight it. I'll take your word (again) that you think that somehow makes sense.

In my experience - and yes, I do have experience here - when the police violate your civil rights, you don't have to accept a 'punishment' and you can make things so that your record accurately reflects your INNOCENCE - by not having illegally obtained convictions on YOUR record.

It sounds to me like you thought it was OK to allow them to do that to you - that you thought it was easier just to let them do it - that you didn't really care that your record now includes something that could later come to haunt you - I don't know why, but again, I have my suspicions that there is more to the story than you're letting on - but, whatever.

Your one, lone incidence of having an undercover cop run you down still doesn't change the fact that giving a stranger the benefit of the doubt is ever a good idea.

 

[aborgman]

So is a running black person is more suspicious looking than a non running black person?

Yes.

...and a running white person is more suspicious than a non-running white person.

...and a running Asian person is more suspicious than a non-running Asian person.

...and a running Native American person is more suspicious than a non-running Native American person.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

This is the only article I can find on it:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]



This was a 5'4", 140lb, disabled, diabetic with long term alcoholism related health issues who was beaten to death by a couple of teens for fun.

Assuming that is accurate, I hope they are still rotting in jail.

 

[aborgman]

I don't dispute any of what you said. The thing is, what you are saying has a gigantic gap in the middle and a lack of followup at the end.

If that cop didn't ID himself properly and led you and your friend to believe you were being pursued by some stranger with ill intent, he was breaking the law - your rights were violated and all of that should have been made right by the magistrate.

Umm... no.

An undercover cop - or anyone else - can follow you around. No matter how creepy they may seem, unless you have PPO they aren't breaking any law at all.

You (as you said) chose not to fight it. I'll take your word (again) that you think that somehow makes sense.

It does if you are at all pragmatic.

The penalty (250 word essay, plus 6 months probation that would be expunged from the record after it was served) seemed a whole lot better than trying to talk my just above the poverty line father into hiring thousands of dollars worth of lawyers.

In my experience - and yes, I do have experience here - when the police violate your civil rights, you don't have to accept a 'punishment' and you can make things so that your record accurately reflects your INNOCENCE - by not having illegally obtained convictions on YOUR record.

You have no civil right for the cops not to follow you around.

It sounds to me like you thought it was OK to allow them to do that to you - that you thought it was easier just to let them do it - that you didn't really care that your record now includes something that could later come to haunt you - I don't know why, but again, I have my suspicions that there is more to the story than you're letting on - but, whatever.

Umm... did you miss where I've repeatedly said it was expunged from the record?

Your one, lone incidence of having an undercover cop run you down still doesn't change the fact that giving a stranger the benefit of the doubt is ever a good idea.

No one is saying to give the stranger the benefit of the doubt - I'm saying put yourself in the situation least likely to end badly. Notify police. Put yourself in a highly visible PUBLIC place., etc.

 

[aborgman]

Assuming that is accurate, I hope they are still rotting in jail.

Highly unlikely.

Last I knew the average second degree murder conviction in Michigan served less than 15 years.

Edit -
It appears Spencer has an earliest possible release date of 08/31/2015, and Donnie Hall was paroled 03/02/2011.

 

[fmoore200]

Since Zimmerman is clearly a Hispanic who is fairly dark in complexion, I am pretty certain that if he were to take DNA test like I did in November, the results would show him to have anywhere from 20-50% African ancestry. It has been my experience that one of the by products of racial stratification is that people who are dark, but not "black," sometimes over compensate by being very antagonistic towards black people. I think that subconsciously, they are always trying to set themselves apart from black people because they know they are not seen as truly "white" by either white or black Americans. I have personally dealt with this kind of hostility, and I am sure that other black people can cite that sort of experience too.

It's funny you say this, and I am in no way saying this is incorrect, but being of Mexican decent with a European last name with olive complexion that gets darker in the summer months I have had a different experience.

I can attest to the feeling of 'not belonging' to either the 'white' or 'black' race but somewhere in between. I have always said I am 'racially ambiguous' as a half joke. I am very much white or Latino in the 'eye of the beholder' so to say. Latinos in new York come to me and speak Spanish assuming I am Latino and when they hear my sub par Spanish they then assume I am white.

Maybe having grown up in a diverse neighborhood in nyc has slanted my view, but I have always felt equally comfortable with white, black, and Hispanic people and never tried to make myself more one or the other.. just sharing my experience here..

 

[JAUQO III-X]

...and a running white person is more suspicious than a non-running white person.

...and a running Asian person is more suspicious than a non-running Asian person.

...and a running Native American person is more suspicious than a non-running Native American person.

No they're not. Because society had made them none suspicious.

 

[Deleted member 92857]

Would you please stop...

What, specifically?

 

[Phil Smith]

No they're not. Because society had made them none suspicious.

Well white joggers are more suspicious of being more health aware than white that aren't jogging.

 

[aborgman]

No they're not. Because society had made them none suspicious.

Right... because cops NEVER chase down anyone that runs from them who is white, Asian, or Native American...

Look - if you run from a cop (marked or unmarked) it's considered suspicious. I don't care what color you are.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

Well white joggers are more suspicious of being more health aware than white that aren't jogging.

Exactly.