Another Shooting

[guy n. cognito]

I just saw an interview with the Sanford city manager, the person who has the power to fire the chief. Frankly, he looked like a deer in the headlights. More to the point, he seemed scared s**tless. He does not want to have make a decision. He is talking about bringing in law enforcement to asses what the chief has done. It is clear to me that in Sanford a really terrible thing has been done, and now no one has the courage to do anything that is genuinely corrective, instead, they are passing the buck from person or department or commission to another.

I get the feeling that they are still trying to ride this out. I don't think they have a clue of how bad they look.

The look on his face could also be from the fact that he was surrounded by international media and angry protestors. His concept of bringing in law enforcement could be in effort to have the most qualified experts render verdict.

Their city council rendered a no confidence vote and barely a week has passed. The FBI is investigating. A grand jury has been convened This does not seem like inaction, IMHO.

In my mind, there is an upside to the measured response in this case. If Zimmerman is brought to trail, his defense won't be as willing to claim a rushed trial or Hispanic racial bias on the part of the police and prosecution.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Problem is - they're voicing it in the wrong place.

The job of the police and judiciary is to uphold the rule of law, not to ensure that laws are just. The legislature that creates and modifies laws is the place to make that argument.

The problem with this case is that evidence is mounting that the police did not do their jobs, and that they misapplied the law. What could be tragic is that the Sanford PD lack of due diligence has the potential to ruin any prosecution of Zimmerman. It would be horribly ironic if Zimmerman were to avoid judgement because of legal issues when it was that he and the police investigating the case were unwilling to apply the law themselves.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Whats sad, like I said before that many ppl ignored is the fact that if it was YOUR CHILD, you wouldnt be doing all this arguing about speculation, crowd support, etc. You or anyone else havent answered my question either. I think ppl would rather argue those things because it doesnt require them to put themselves in the situation. Reminds me of the lawyers final statement in "A Time To Kill".

Also what ppl are missing once again (that spawned other threads) is that alot of the media attention and protests were sparked by THE MOTHER's hard work in making sure this case traveled as far as she could send it. she sent mass emails, called the news, FB, etc. Thats part of the reason those other cases ppl were trying to counter with didnt get this attention. If I felt my child's case was horribly handled like this, I would do the same thing.

I think millions of people have put themselves in Trayvon's position of his parents position, and that is why the outcry for this case has been so intense. I did not grow up in a tough neighborhood by any stretch of the imagination, but I can think of times when I could have been in Trayvon's shoes. I have no sons, but even my daughters could potentially run into this situation also.

 

[Sav'nBass]

Maybe the city manager knows that he has to walk past the crowd of peaceful protesters outside in order to get home and that's why he looks scared.
Nahhhhh....

Being a black man, he should be worried that someone on the Sanford PD won't recognize at night than he should be afraid of protestors.

@ ST Yeah .. Naahhh


Dr. Cheese is probably more on point..

Whats sad, like I said before that many ppl ignored is the fact that if it was YOUR CHILD, you wouldnt be doing all this arguing about speculation, crowd support, etc. You or anyone else havent answered my question either. I think ppl would rather argue those things because it doesnt require them to put themselves in the situation. Reminds me of the lawyers final statement in "A Time To Kill".

Also what ppl are missing once again (that spawned other threads) is that alot of the media attention and protests were sparked by THE MOTHER's hard work in making sure this case traveled as far as she could send it. she sent mass emails, called the news, FB, etc. Thats part of the reason those other cases ppl were trying to counter with didnt get this attention. If I felt my child's case was horribly handled like this, I would do the same thing.

+10 ... exactly .. and I believe I said as much several times early on in this thread ..


Link Removed

My 15 year old son .. and he was 14 when this picture was taken .. is 5'11" 216 lbs.. I can only shudder at the thought of some wanna be cop being threatened by him ... .

He doesn't do drugs that I know of .. likes girls, X-Box, and music ... My parents live in Pt. St Lucie ... in a gated community... this is one reason why this hits so close to home to me.. Had the S.P.D. actually done their jobs from the beginning in an objective manner .. much of the outrage surrounding this case would not exist ... it would have been replaced with more sadness that such a tragedy could happen.. but the fact that everything happened the way it did changes the dynamic considerably..

 

[tZer]

My 15 year old son .. and he was 14 when this picture was taken .. is 5'11" 216 lbs.. I can only shudder at the thought of some wanna be cop being threatened by him ... .

Exactly.

And to answer the comment that people seem to be missing the point that this could happen to their children - Not by me. All I can think about is the fact that I teach my kids about how to avoid potential danger from strange people in cars who want them to do stuff - like identify themselves or explain why they are where they are - or help find a lost puppy - or...

Everything I teach my kids would have sent them running much like Treyvon ran - Like I think he should have done because, as I and many other parents teach our kids - that stranger might want to do them harm and they should do everything they can to find safety. They should run and yell for help and in no way voluntarily do what some stranger tells them to do.

Everything I have learned about this case breaks my heart. It's very easy (now) to simply pawn off all the mistakes on "incompetent police" and ignore the idea that maybe they did such an amazingly bad job because they really didn't care about the victim and they assumed that he probably deserved what he got - and that any investigation would ultimately prove all that to be true, so why bother?

I also believe that the fact that Martin was black only played into Zimmerman's delusion. But I also believe it's very possible that if the kid were not black but dressed like a goth or a punk or a metal-head that he very well would have done the same thing - assumed the worst and put the same sequence of events into motion.

Racism? To a degree... Prejudice? Clearly. Young - apparently 'out of place' - recent break-ins - a vigilante mentality - someone was bound to get hurt with Zimmerman "on duty" - it was only a matter of time.

IF the reason Zimmerman cannot be charged does come down to lack of evidence, I wonder if there is any way (civil?) to hold the inept police accountable in a meaningful way?

 

[Sav'nBass]

Exactly.

Racism? To a degree... Prejudice? Clearly. Young - apparently 'out of place' - recent break-ins - a vigilante mentality - someone was bound to get hurt with Zimmerman "on duty" - it was only a matter of time.

KUDOS for being wise enough to know and articulate the difference.


Many do not.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Exactly.

And to answer the comment that people seem to be missing the point that this could happen to their children - Not by me. All I can think about is the fact that I teach my kids about how to avoid potential danger from strange people in cars who want them to do stuff - like identify themselves or explain why they are where they are - or help find a lost puppy - or...

Everything I teach my kids would have sent them running much like Treyvon ran - Like I think he should have done because, as I and many other parents teach our kids - that stranger might want to do them harm and they should do everything they can to find safety. They should run and yell for help and in no way voluntarily do what some stranger tells them to do.

Everything I have learned about this case breaks my heart. It's very easy (now) to simply pawn off all the mistakes on "incompetent police" and ignore the idea that maybe they did such an amazingly bad job because they really didn't care about the victim and they assumed that he probably deserved what he got - and that any investigation would ultimately prove all that to be true, so why bother?

I also believe that the fact that Martin was black only played into Zimmerman's delusion. But I also believe it's very possible that if the kid were not black but dressed like a goth or a punk or a metal-head that he very well would have done the same thing - assumed the worst and put the same sequence of events into motion.

Racism? To a degree... Prejudice? Clearly. Young - apparently 'out of place' - recent break-ins - a vigilante mentality - someone was bound to get hurt with Zimmerman "on duty" - it was only a matter of time.

IF the reason Zimmerman cannot be charged does come down to lack of evidence, I wonder if there is any way (civil?) to hold the inept police accountable in a meaningful way?

From what I understand about Florida law, if Zimmerman is found to have committed a justified shooting, he cannot be sued. I do think that the city can be sued if it is proven that they did an incompetent investigation or that racism lead them to ignore evidence.

You mentioned that Zimmerman may have treated a white kid similarly, I will say that I do not think that would have been the case. I will say why I think that is so, but this is clearly just my opinion, and not something I can prove at all.

Since Zimmerman is clearly a Hispanic who is fairly dark in complexion, I am pretty certain that if he were to take DNA test like I did in November, the results would show him to have anywhere from 20-50% African ancestry. It has been my experience that one of the by products of racial stratification is that people who are dark, but not "black," sometimes over compensate by being very antagonistic towards black people. I think that subconsciously, they are always trying to set themselves apart from black people because they know they are not seen as truly "white" by either white or black Americans. I have personally dealt with this kind of hostility, and I am sure that other black people can cite that sort of experience too.


Given reports of Zimmerman's obsession with young male black criminals, I think his need to fight crime may have been at least partially fueled by a need to set himself apart from these young black men.

 

[aborgman]

Everything I teach my kids would have sent them running much like Treyvon ran - Like I think he should have done because, as I and many other parents teach our kids - that stranger might want to do them harm and they should do everything they can to find safety. They should run and yell for help and in no way voluntarily do what some stranger tells them to do.

As someone who got arrested for running from an undercover cop in almost this exact situation - running is not what I'd recommend.

 

[Deleted member 92857]

Being a black man, he should be worried that someone on the Sanford PD won't recognize at night than he should be afraid of protestors.

Did the sanford PD shoot anybody? My goodness, I'll have to go back and read all the press again.

Don't let the fact that he's black fool you. He's certainly an "uncle tom" and in cahoots with the Sanford PD and Zimmerman. They're all in this plot, you know.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Did the sanford PD shoot anybody? My goodness, I'll have to go back and read all the press again.

Don't let the fact that he's black fool you. He's certainly an "uncle tom" and in cahoots with the Sanford PD and Zimmerman. They're all in this plot, you know.

Actually, there were some very controversial shooting incidents in 2005, that have played into the current distrust.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

As someone who got arrested for running from an undercover cop in almost this exact situation - running is not what I'd recommend.

No solution is 100%, I am not convinced that total compliance would have saved Martin's life either.

 

[tZer]

As someone who got arrested for running from an undercover cop in almost this exact situation - running is not what I'd recommend.

You mentioned that before - I'll take you at your word but I also think there is much more to the story than your brief statement reveals.

If the only reason you ran was because you honestly believed you were in danger and because the cop didn't properly ID himself, you should not have been charged - and even if you were (as you say) your lawyer should have easily been able to get the case dismissed. Why didn't any of that happen?

 

[aborgman]

No solution is 100%, I am not convinced that total compliance would have saved Martin's life either.

I'm not convinced that anything would have achieved any particular outcome - reality just isn't easily predictable like that.

My experience tells me that you're better off:

1) Hanging up on your girlfriend
2) Calling police
3) Walking (not running) to the most public, well lit, occupied area you can find.
4) Wait for the police arriving shortly.

 

[aborgman]

You mentioned that before - I'll take you at your word but I also think there is much more to the story than your brief statement reveals.

If the only reason you ran was because you honestly believed you were in danger and because the cop didn't properly ID himself, you should not have been charged - and even if you were (as you say) your lawyer should have easily been able to get the case dismissed. Why didn't any of that happen?

I was convicted of prowling - which is a crime which falls under the same statutes as "loitering" generally. Basically if the police say you acted suspiciously, and were somewhere you weren't supposed to be - you're guilty of prowling. That, in and of itself, is a misdemeanor.

Funny enough - my friend that was with me (a 14 year old) who got roughed up by the police during the arrest never got charged with anything... and his name was blacked out on every copy of the police report.

As for why I didn't fight it? A number of reasons:

1) 6 months probation that disappears off your record + writing an essay about how I was bad is a lot cheaper than a lawyer.

2) As far as I could read the law - I was guilty.

Here is the actual law from the city ordinance:

It shall be unlawful for any person to loiter or prowl in any place at a time or in a manner not usual for law-abiding individuals under circumstances that warrant alarm for the safety of persons or property in the vicinity, or in those circumstances where peace and order are threatened or where the safety of persons or property is jeopardized, or where such individual by his conduct in any public place obstructs the free and uninterrupted passage of the general public.

(b) Among those circumstances which may be considered in determining whether alarm is warranted is the fact that the person takes flight upon appearance of a police officer, refuses to identify himself or endeavors to conceal himself or any object.

3) Lack of desire to antagonize the local PD - although that didn't really work out, as I became a go to criminal suspect for a couple years... including them stopping by my parents house and wanting to question me almost a year after I had moved out of town.

 

[tZer]

You mentioned that Zimmerman may have treated a white kid similarly, I will say that I do not think that would have been the case. I will say why I think that is so, but this is clearly just my opinion, and not something I can prove at all.

Since Zimmerman is clearly a Hispanic who is fairly dark in complexion, I am pretty certain that if he were to take DNA test like I did in November, the results would show him to have anywhere from 20-50% African ancestry. It has been my experience that one of the by products of racial stratification is that people who are dark, but not "black," sometimes over compensate by being very antagonistic towards black people. I think that subconsciously, they are always trying to set themselves apart from black people because they know they are not seen as truly "white" by either white or black Americans. I have personally dealt with this kind of hostility, and I am sure that other black people can cite that sort of experience too.


Given reports of Zimmerman's obsession with young male black criminals, I think his need to fight crime may have been at least partially fueled by a need to set himself apart from these young black men.

My gut says that's giving Zimmerman way too much credit. But there is no way to know. As I said, I do think race plays a role in many aspects of this. I am not necessarily convinced it's the sole reason Zimmerman did what he did - but I am also not convinced that Treyvon's race didn't motivate Zimmerman either.

As for Zimmerman's need to 'prove himself' - I think that's there, but again, not necessarily a race thing. I think it's a power thing - a 28 year old man-child playing cop - unfortunately with a real gun.

Now the police - man... it's so hard NOT to think that the fact that Treyvon was black didn't factor into why they just shrugged this one off.

I want to know how any one of the responding officers explains away why they didn't do a damn thing right.

 

[Sav'nBass]

I think that Zimmerman or his fol;ks are probably from Germany by way of Paraguay, Uraguay, Argentina, Chile or Peru.. I know several Hispanics of European decent with German names who got there as a result of the war.. and their parents fleeing there.

Regardless.. he probably does not identify with any "minority" ethnicity except perhaps being Jewish.. Of course thios is all conjecture on my part.

 

[malthumb]

I just saw an interview with the Sanford city manager, the person who has the power to fire the chief. Frankly, he looked like a deer in the headlights. More to the point, he seemed scared s**tless. He does not want to have make a decision. He is talking about bringing in law enforcement to asses what the chief has done. It is clear to me that in Sanford a really terrible thing has been done, and now no one has the courage to do anything that is genuinely corrective, instead, they are passing the buck from person or department or commission to another.

I get the feeling that they are still trying to ride this out. I don't think they have a clue of how bad they look.

I can sorta feel for the city manager's position. A few years ago one of my neighbors was publicly accused of several crimes and errors of morality. Even though she was guilty of all she was charged with and pleaded to that, I found it difficult to be in conversations where her actions were called into question That's because on all the levels that I dealt with her on, she was honest, pleasant, helpful, and cheerful. I felt like I would be throwing her under the bus to say anything other than that. I can imagine the city manager has similar interaction with the police chief. And that on a human level, he probably sees someone he has a lot of respect for getting trounced.

In both cases, my neighbor's and the police chief, the glare of the public spotlight and the harsh punishment attached is warranted. It's just difficult for those close to them to look at it through the same lens as the those without daily interaction, those who see the whole person.

 

[malthumb]

............
The police and courts exist to uphold the rule of law.

.......and when they do their job, the PEACEFUL protestors will go away

 

[tZer]

I was convicted of prowling - which is a crime which falls under the same statutes as "loitering" generally. Basically if the police say you acted suspiciously, and were somewhere you weren't supposed to be - you're guilty of prowling. That, in and of itself, is a misdemeanor.

Funny enough - my friend that was with me (a 14 year old) who got roughed up by the police during the arrest never got charged with anything... and his name was blacked out on every copy of the police report.

As for why I didn't fight it? A number of reasons:

1) 6 months probation that disappears off your record + writing an essay about how I was bad is a lot cheaper than a lawyer.

2) As far as I could read the law - I was guilty.

3) Lack of desire to antagonize the local PD - although that didn't really work out, as I became a go to criminal suspect for a couple years... including them stopping by my parents house and wanting to question me almost a year after I had moved out of town.

Well, you seem to have been OK with all that so who am I to second guess all the loose ends and other things that just sound wrong about it all?

But it doesn't convince me that running from people who are obviously not cops and who are obviously after you for something is a bad idea.

 

[Marlat]

I posted this in the other thread (about other cases - now shut down) but thought it might of interest to those hear as an example of when "media bias" and "public outcry" can have a positive effect on the outcome of a situation of apparent injustice:

Murder of Stephen Lawrence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

After the initial investigation, five suspects were arrested but not convicted.[4] It was suggested during the course of that investigation that the murder was racially motivated and that Lawrence was killed because he was black, and that the handling of the case by the police and Crown Prosecution Service was affected by issues of race. A public inquiry was held in 1998,[5] headed by Sir William Macpherson, that examined the original Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) investigation and concluded that the force was "institutionally racist". It also recommended that the double jeopardy rule should be abrogated in murder cases to allow a retrial upon new and compelling evidence; this became law in 2005. The publication in 1999 of the resulting Macpherson Report has been called 'one of the most important moments in the modern history of criminal justice in Britain'.[6] The then-Home Secretary Jack Straw commented in 2012 that ordering the inquiry was "the single most important decision I made as Home Secretary".[7] In 2010 the case was described as being "one of the highest-profile unsolved racially-motivated murders".[8]