The turns this thread has taken in the past few days really has little to do with what, at the end of the day, is the needless tragedy of a teen's death, but it's like a bad car accident. Horrible, yet difficult to look away.
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Another Shooting
- Thread starter Dr. Cheese
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Read the article and it's quite enlightening.
I would also suggest not going into the comments section below this article.
That pretty much sums up my feelings. Regardless of racial issues, this was a very sad situation that didn't have to happen, and that family shouldn't have lost their son. Period.
It's becoming more and more clear that the Sanford Police simply did not do anything really worthy of being called an investigation. Their plan was to simply say that Zimmerman was justified, and they were going to cover this murder up. The Sanford PD never counted on Martin's parents being willing to put the fight they have, plus Martin was a kid with no record who was much too small in stature to be portrayed as a threat. That lack of drug testing, failure to check cell phone records, even the basic effort to knock on doors in the neighborhood to see if anyone knew this deceased teen, points to a department that simply did not care about a dead black teen.
An interesting idea has been floated, and that is the possibility that Zimmerman is a police informant. That would explain the fact that he was charged with battery against a police officer but yet the charges were dropped. As a lawyer on TV said today, battery or assault charges against police simply are not dropped. This suggests some sort of relationship that Zimmerman has with the Sanford police that has yet to be acknowledged, and it would explain why he was let go that night, and why the city officers so quickly passed this case on to the state attorney who has now passed it on to the grand jury. All of them had the authority to arrest Zimmerman, and it is becoming clear that this killing is more than a potential manslaughter case. A strong case can be made for premeditated murder which is a capital offense in Florida.
I know a lot of you guys do not care for their politics, but MSNBC has had some detailed coverage of this case the last few days.
An interesting idea has been floated, and that is the possibility that Zimmerman is a police informant. That would explain the fact that he was charged with battery against a police officer but yet the charges were dropped. As a lawyer on TV said today, battery or assault charges against police simply are not dropped. This suggests some sort of relationship that Zimmerman has with the Sanford police that has yet to be acknowledged, and it would explain why he was let go that night, and why the city officers so quickly passed this case on to the state attorney who has now passed it on to the grand jury. All of them had the authority to arrest Zimmerman, and it is becoming clear that this killing is more than a potential manslaughter case. A strong case can be made for premeditated murder which is a capital offense in Florida.
I know a lot of you guys do not care for their politics, but MSNBC has had some detailed coverage of this case the last few days.
Agreed!
Not sure it matters unless and until there is a punishment phase. Punishment phase requires a conviction. A conviction requires an arrest and a trial. This is what I believe most people are pushing for. An arrest and a fact based trial.
Only important in defining his motivation. Given his recorded statements and prior interactions with Sanford Police, it is logical to conclude that race was a factor in his decision to continue to pursue Martin, even when told not to. He might have killed anyone he was engaged in an altercation with. In this case it happened to be a black person, whom he followed because......well....he was black and therefore in HIS mind, suspicious.
Probably. Doesn't change what Zimmerman is accused of or the lengths to which the SPD went to do nothing about it. That's the main thing. The media is just a distraction.
Absolutely correct on both counts. It's actually a shame that I know this. It is a shame that anyone was subjected to slavery or mob violence in "the New World"
As someone who is far from being a Fox News fan, I commend them for running Rep. Baxley's article. More importantly, Baxley really exposes as a lie, the argument that "stand your ground," tied the hands of the Sanford police. They did not arrest Zimmerman for some other reason, but it was not because they could not do so.
Dr. Cheese said:
I find the different levels of crimes interesting. When would it go from, say manslaughter to premeditated homicide? I ask because I don't know, not to entice any anger.
It seems to me (solely from the facts that have been presented at this point) that this was a situation that escalated too quickly and became tragic.
I believe that zimmerman was basing his "surveillance" of Martin on the color of his skin, which is deplorable but not a crime in and of itself, and that led to an unnecessary confrontation which tragically led to Martin's death. I don't see it as a planned attack.
Once again I may be wrong, and as the facts come out I may change my opinion, but I don't believe Zimmerman's crime to be premeditated.
What person who ever saw a western would dispute that whites have been lynched in America? That is something that is beyond easy to prove. Whether whites were ever chattel slaves like Africans is something that is very disputable. Many whites came to America as indentured servants who were sometimes given worse jobs than slaves because they were a cheaper investment, but they not property for life, and they were free to achieve whatever they could when their period of indenture was up.
I know that the first Africans brought to English speaking North America in 1619 were indentured servants also, and early on African slaves and white indentured servants mingled and mixed socially and sexually, however, by 1660, Virginia was the first state to pass laws saying that unless there was proof to the contrary, any black person was assumed to be a slave.
More to the point, often when the subject of racism is brought up, there are those who counter that whites had it hard too! Of course whites had it hard too. I'm pretty sure I could go a few miles to a homeless shelter and ask somebody about how much they are benefitting from white skin privilege and get my butt kicked by someone who is rightfully pissed.
Hardship is not a zero sum game. Admitting the problem of racism does not mean that other peoples struggles are not terrible or unimportant.
The point the lawyer made is that legally, it only takes a period of 3-5 munutes to establish premeditation. Once the dispatcher say you don't need to follow, and now that it is established that he pursued Martin, it is enough to prove that he violently confronted Martin with malice and forethought.
Indentured servant is another term for slave.
In fact, there where white slaves in america BEFORE there were black slaves.
here's just one account for you to read Dr. Cheese:
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You'll be able to find more of you put the effort in to look.
No, getting your freedom after seven years is not the same as being a slave for life and also having your children become property of your owner and they can be taken away from you and sold too. BTW, once again no one who stayed awake in seventh grade should be that surprised that white indentured servants were in English speaking America before African slaves. The Jamestown colony was settled in 1607, the first Africans came in 1619.
I am quite familiar with slavery, and I have studied slavery and taught about slavery in America and Africa. Once again, there is no need for a suffering competition between blacks and whites. Suffering and hardship is not a zero sum game.
In George Sandys laws for Virginia, Whites were enslaved "forever."
The service of Whites bound to Berkeley's Hundred was deemed "perpetual."
They must have been felons sentenced for a crime which would have put them in another category. Even still, about 12,000,000 slaves were imported to the Western Hemisphere between 1500-1880 by a famous conservative estimate. The number of white "slaves" in perpetual servitude would have been miniscule in comparison.
This is fairly interesting, and deserves it's own thread. I suggest you start one before this seriously derails the Martin discussion.
- May 30, 2000
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I have a great idea...Why don't you start your own "White Slavery" thread? Post links to sites and reading material so others can benefit from your vast knowledge on the topic.
Point taken but from my perspective .... all the "What about what blacks do..?" and "What about other incidents" and other such statements are in just as poor taste. This kid was gunned down in cold blood... that man could have just pulled his gun and made a point if he felt threatened so all this objectivity and lets hear the facts malarkey is just as offensive to me as a man with a sheet on his head. The known facts of this case alone are enough to make any sane person reflect .... I have a 15 year old son and the mere thought of something like this happening to him brings tears to my eyes ... the scary part is it is very possible.
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