Another Shooting

[Dr_Funkdamental]

Zimmerman is going down. There is absolutely nothing that I've read (and yes more 'facts' are coming out, slowly) that exonerates him in the court of public opinion. He doles out his own form of justice, carries a weapon - this ain't no skittles gun - when neighborhood watch people aren't allowed to apparently - he claims self defense by shooting a kid 100lbs lighter in the chest. A kid! All this after being being told by 911/police to 'stop' following the kid. Sounds like a power-hungry, mentally mal-adjusted, insecure man to me. And probably thinks he justified. I don't see how anyone, at this point, with the facts we have from the media, could form any other opinion. That being said, it's up to the FBI and other authorities now. How many thought OJ Simpson was guilty before he faced a verdict, let alone arraignment?

A totally senseless killing.

And Michael Jackson, but hey, I'd assume there wasnt a 5+ page thread arguing any minuscule possibility of them being innocent.

 

[aborgman]

And Michael Jackson, but hey, I'd assume there wasnt a 5+ page thread arguing any minuscule possibility of them being innocent.

Actually there were NUMEROUS threads where people asserted the possibility Of Jackson not doing anything at all bad with kids...

 

[tZer]

So did anyone listen to the "possible racial slur" recording and conclude it was an actual racial slur?

I have. To me it sounds more like 'punks' than the slur - but it's not clearly 'punks' either, so I am not sure what he says.

I certainly wouldn't be basing any arguments about Zimmerman's intent on that alone - other than he clearly sounds 'agitated'.

 

[peledog]

Also, why is Zimmerman listed as White Hispanic? I'm hoping it's because he's multi-ethnic/multi-racial. I don't believe there's a 'caste' system for Hispanics...

Have you seen this meme?

Link Removed

 

[onosson]

I don't think the crowds will be happy with "justice"=="rule of law".

They'll only be happy if "justice" == "there personal opinion of what should happen".

I was just talking about Smokin' Toaster's comment on what malthumb said, not trying to assume what's in the minds of the crowd myself.

 

[Deleted member 92857]

Suggesting that protesters want to override the justice system is unfair, they were protesting the systems inaction. The simple fact was that got nearly three weeks after Trayvon's death, nothing happened. Two weeks after public pressure starts , there is a federal investigation and the Seminole County grand jury convenes. We cannot prove a negative, but I think most feel public pressure made things happen.

Inaction, or not on the crowd's desired schedule? I have questions: Does anyone know what the normal schedule of the Seminole County grand Jury is? Have they convened since the incident and neglected to hear evidence on it? Is two weeks more, less, or typical of the time between which an incident occurs and a grand jury gets the evidence? Is the justice system operating at it's normal pace, and it's just not good enough for the crowd?

 

[El Beardo]

So did anyone listen to the "possible racial slur" recording and conclude it was an actual racial slur?

It sounded like he said punks to me.

 

[peledog]

Inaction, or not on the crowd's desired schedule? I have questions: Does anyone know what the normal schedule of the Seminole County grand Jury is? Have they convened since the incident and neglected to hear evidence on it? Is two weeks more, less, or typical of the time between which an incident occurs and a grand jury gets the evidence? Is the justice system operating at it's normal pace, and it's just not good enough for the crowd?

Crowd? What crowd? There's a crowd?

 

[Deleted member 92857]

Crowd? What crowd? There's a crowd?

Hey, I didn't say mob.

 

[peledog]

Hey, I didn't say mob.

LOL

'There's a crowd?' supposed to be read with a Seinfeld-New York inflection.

 

[tZer]

Hey, I didn't say mob.

...but earlier in the discussion...

...So you advocate for mob justice?

They may be right, they may be wrong, but sound reasoning and careful weighing of the evidence is rarely one of a mobs strong points.

Guilty or innocent... would you want your fate in their hands?

To be fair, that was in response to someone else who described the angry crowd as a 'mob'.

But to be even more fair, in your initial musings about the crowd where you brought up images of lynchings, the implication of 'mob' is very thick. One could easily argue 'semantics' and say potato, potahto here...

 

[Deleted member 92857]

...but earlier in the discussion...



To be fair, that was in response to someone else who described the angry crowd as a 'mob'.

But to be even more fair, in your initial musings about the crowd where you brought up images of lynchings, the implication of 'mob' is very thick. One could easily argue 'semantics' and say potato, potahto here...

The point, sadly missed, was that when you replace rule of law with screaming "gathering of people", bad things will certainly occur. In the past, lynchings have taken place as a result of angry "gatherings of people" taking the law into their own hands. I'm not sure that angry "gathering of people" in Seminole County would not like to dispense justice themselves.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

The point, sadly missed, was that when you replace rule of law with screaming "gathering of people", bad things will certainly occur. In the past, lynchings have taken place as a result of angry "gatherings of people" taking the law into their own hands. I'm not sure that angry "gathering of people" in Seminole County would not like to dispense justice themselves.

That's another cheap shot. You hate it when someone brings up Old South images, but those images are based a terrible past that no one can deny.

African American protestors are part of a tradition that really became world famous because of Dr. King, someone you say you respect. Since you are so fearful that these crowds want to lynch someone, name a historical precedent for your fear. Show me where organized protests of African Americans turned into lynch mobs at any time. THe best you can probably do is list some riots, but you know full well that a riot that flares up over an incident is totally different from law students from traditionally Black schools organizing a protest.

I feel that you clearly admit that the shooting of Martin was wrong and that Zimmerman is probably guilty of something. I also feel that there is a part of you that feels a need to always find some sort of negative equivalence in African American behavior whenever a problem of racism is uncovered. That is why you are conflating a lawful protest of law students from Florida A&M and students from Bethune-Cookman with old time Southern lynch mobs.

 

[Southpaw5]

The point, sadly missed, was that when you replace rule of law with screaming "gathering of people", bad things will certainly occur. In the past, lynchings have taken place as a result of angry "gatherings of people" taking the law into their own hands. I'm not sure that angry "gathering of people" in Seminole County would not like to dispense justice themselves.

Bad things already did occur, and essentially nothing was done about it. And so far as of yet, they have not taken the law into their own hands, only voiced their opinion that justice has not been done due to a law which can be (not necessarily is) a loophole for murder. They clearly believe that this is the case, and many think there is a good chance they are right.

 

[tZer]

The point, sadly missed, was that when you replace rule of law with screaming "gathering of people", bad things will certainly occur. In the past, lynchings have taken place as a result of angry "gatherings of people" taking the law into their own hands. I'm not sure that angry "gathering of people" in Seminole County would not like to dispense justice themselves.

No, that point was understood.

The missed point is that manufacturing a causal link between an angry crowd and lawlessness is a leap in logic and extending that leap to include the implied downfall of the justice system is too.

Regarding things that have taken place in the hands of angry people; The creation of the conditions that brought about the Constitution happens to be one of those things.

The idea that because a crowd is angry that they intend to become lawless is a leap. It's their right to be a crowd and be angry and to do so in public. It's your right to be concerned about how angry they might get, but it's wrong to simply assume that because they are angry they will break the law or are somehow endangering our Constitutionally based system of justice.

 

[guy n. cognito]

That's another cheap shot. You hate it when someone brings up Old South images, but those images are based a terrible past that no one can deny.

African American protestors are part of a tradition that really became world famous because of Dr. King, someone you say you respect. Since you are so fearful that these crowds want to lynch someone, name a historical precedent for your fear. Show me where organized protests of African Americans turned into lynch mobs at any time. THe best you can probably do is list some riots, but you know full well that a riot that flares up over an incident is totally different from law students from traditionally Black schools organizing a protest.

I fail to see why riots would be excluded from this discussion, when some of the most famous did, indeed, start as peaceful, organized protests.

 

[Deleted member 92857]

That's another cheap shot. You hate it when someone brings up Old South images, but those images are based a terrible past that no one can deny.

African American protestors are part of a tradition that really became world famous because of Dr. King, someone you say you respect. Since you are so fearful that these crowds want to lynch someone, name a historical precedent for your fear. Show me where organized protests of African Americans turned into lynch mobs at any time. THe best you can probably do is list some riots, but you know full well that a riot that flares up over an incident is totally different from law students from traditionally Black schools organizing a protest.

Dr. Cheese, I wasn't even taking race into account. You labeled the crowd African american. EDIT - I saw a bunch of very angry people. I looked at their faces and into their eyes... I missed the color of their skin. Sorry about that.


Screaming "gatherings of beings" wanting "justice" in a controversial case could be purple and from mars, and I'd still have the same concerns.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Dr. Cheese, I wasn't even taking race into account. You labeled the crowd African american.
Screaming "gatherings of beings" wanting "justice" in a controversial case could be purple and from mars, and I'd still have the same concerns.

Is that supposed to somehow be good? The crowds are overwhelmingly black. You see it, and you have talked about them as if they are verging on a murderous riot. It makes no difference if you mention their color or not because everyone who has been following this case knows that the protestors are mainly African American.

 

[Deleted member 92857]

And another minor point missed... I was pointing to a historic injustice and EDIT [DEL]mob[/DEL] "angry gathering of people" justice committed by WHITE PEOPLE IN THE SOUTH as an example of the bad things that can happen with "groups of people" replace rule of law.

 

[seventhson]

The point, sadly missed, was that when you replace rule of law with screaming "gathering of people", bad things will certainly occur. In the past, lynchings have taken place as a result of angry "gatherings of people" taking the law into their own hands. I'm not sure that angry "gathering of people" in Seminole County would not like to dispense justice themselves.

There's nothing inherently wrong with screaming "gathering of people" expressing their strong feelings about something. The 1st ammendment guarantees that right.

There is something wrong with letting your passions take over and become a lynch mob...like what happened in the South many, many times.

There is nothing to suggest that a screaming gathering of people must necessarily turn into a lynch mob like as you suggest. Nor is it impossible for it to happen either. However, until it actually transpires, it seems like you're looking to cast unfair dispersions on those that are expressing outrage in a peaceful gathering. As if there was something wrong with their expression of outrage.

Btw, I'm from the South (Dallas, TX to be exact).