Another Shooting

[onosson]

Something has struck me about this case, and I offer it as food for thought: There are crowds screaming for the arrest of Zimmerman. Now there are crowds screaming for the firing of the police chief. Crowds.

Letting the crowd act as investigator, enforcer, judge and jury resulted in lynchings in the past. Is that really what anyone wants?

I'd hate to be Zimmerman. But I'm not sure if I'd hate being guilty Zimmerman or being innocent Zimmerman right now.

Guilty Zimmerman has to live with what he's done, and suffer the consequences (death or incarceration).

Innocent Zimmerman has to live with the fact that he won't be able to walk the streets without fear of being lynched.

It seems to me that is a direct consequence of the law that's been mentioned here, and is one if the reasons why it is a failure. I'm not saying the crowd should dictate justice - but if people are motivated enough to speak up in this way, then people should seriously consider why that is.

 

[AfroCubanFunkMa]

Guilty Zimmerman has to live with what he's done, and suffer the consequences (death or incarceration).

Innocent Zimmerman has to live with the fact that he won't be able to walk the streets without fear of being lynched.

I believe Zimmerman confessed to the shooting so he's already guilty.. He also lied about the self-defense thing but we can wait for the courts to flush that out.. The only question is how guilty, no if..

 

[Phil Smith]

Something has struck me about this case, and I offer it as food for thought: There are crowds screaming for the arrest of Zimmerman. Now there are crowds screaming for the firing of the police chief. Crowds.

Letting the crowd act as investigator, enforcer, judge and jury resulted in lynchings in the past. Is that really what anyone wants?

I'd hate to be Zimmerman. But I'm not sure if I'd hate being guilty Zimmerman or being innocent Zimmerman right now.

Guilty Zimmerman has to live with what he's done, and suffer the consequences (death or incarceration).

Innocent Zimmerman has to live with the fact that he won't be able to walk the streets without fear of being lynched.

I don't think you're going to ever have the type of situation you had in the early 20th century, where black people were lynched, mutilated and body parts taken as trophies, and you had CROWDS of men, women and children, watching like it was theater and then sending around postcards of the event.

People want justice and they want the people responsible for administering justice to do their jobs.

 

[tZer]

It does seem that no matter what the outcome, Zimmerman's life is never going to be the same. But at least he has one - not that I'd necessarily want to have to live like that over the alternative.

If he has an iota of something that resembles a conscience, he's going to have to deal with that forever. Living with the knowledge that you quite literally stalked/hunted down/terrorized an innocent kid - carrying home snacks for his family - and shot him to death - for whatever reason you think you can attach to those actions as 'justification' - would have to be pretty damn hard for someone with half a brain and a conscience.

We now get to see exactly how and why our legal system 'works', what needs to be fixed and then we need to fix it.

It seems pretty clear from what's been released that all of this (post-Zimmerman) debacle lies squarely on the Chief of Police's shoulders. If anything, the LEO's who responded may have inadvertently become complicit in a cover-up - just as "accidentally" as Zimmerman shot and killed Martin.

"Oopsie! My bad... My mistake..." Both Zimmerman and the Police seem to be guilty doing very similar things - jumping to bad conclusions based on a spectrum of individual and group dysfunction so broad it's nauseating, and doing things that snowball into a giant pile of not snow.

Crowds are mad? I hope the hell so.

 

[malthumb]

Something has struck me about this case, and I offer it as food for thought: There are crowds screaming for the arrest of Zimmerman. Now there are crowds screaming for the firing of the police chief. Crowds.

Letting the crowd act as investigator, enforcer, judge and jury resulted in lynchings in the past. Is that really what anyone wants?

Wow, dude. That is a Herculean leap of logic. Comparing crowds that are asking justice to do its job to crowds that assembled for the singular purpose of violent and deadly action conducted intentionally outside of the justice system (sometimes with "justice" as a bystander and/or participant). Wow.

Much of what has proven to be positive social change in the 20th century arose from protests like this. In the US, in India, in South Africa, in Egypt. Confusing this with the type of mob action that took place in Mississippi and Alabama where mobs LITERALLY sent out invitations for people to attend lynchings? Where families could bring their children to take photographs (fairly new technology back then, probably akin to YouTubing stupid activities today) with the still smoldering bodies of people who were tortured, hung and burned? In those situations, the point of the gathering WAS violence. Suggesting that a peaceful protest will necessarily grow into a violent incident is an incredible leap. Could it happen? I am sure it COULD. Will it happen? The odds are strikingly against it. Unless some idiot with a gun and a twisted sense of self importance decides to take it upon himself to....oh....wait......that's how we got here in the first place.

 

[Deleted member 92857]

Wow, dude. That is a Herculean leap of logic. Comparing crowds that are asking justice to do its job to crowds that assembled for the singular purpose of violent and deadly action conducted intentionally outside of the justice system (sometimes with "justice" as a bystander and/or participant). Wow.

Much of what has proven to be positive social change in the 20th century arose from protests like this. In the US, in India, in South Africa, in Egypt. Confusing this with the type of mob action that took place in Mississippi and Alabama where mobs LITERALLY sent out invitations for people to attend lynchings? Where families could bring their children to take photographs (fairly new technology back then, probably akin to YouTubing stupid activities today) with the still smoldering bodies of people who were tortured, hung and burned? In those situations, the point of the gathering WAS violence. Suggesting that a peaceful protest will necessarily grow into a violent incident is an incredible leap. Could it happen? I am sure it COULD. Will it happen? The odds are strikingly against it. Unless some idiot with a gun and a twisted sense of self importance decides to take it upon himself to....oh....wait......that's how we got here in the first place.

Thanks for picking on Mississippi and Alabama, as everyone knows, ours are the only two states were racism exists, and where any young black man was ever lynched. And of course all Alabamians participated, we are quite monolithic in our thuoghts and actions.

If you are black, there are some vacation destinations in Idaho you may find educational. Look for the swastikas and you'll find them. We don't have any of those in Alabama, Michael Donald's mother helped us get rid of them.

EDIT: Not picking on everyone in Idaho, just pointing out that you'll find racism outside of Alabama and Mississippi.

So you advocate for mob justice?

They may be right, they may be wrong, but sound reasoning and careful weighing of the evidence is rarely one of a mobs strong points.

Guilty or innocent... would you want your fate in their hands?

 

[onosson]

I don't think he's advocating mob justice. He said "crowds that are asking justice to do its job" - that's a far different thing than the crowd carrying out what it perceives justice to be, which is how I'd define mob justice.

 

[tZer]

So you advocate for mob justice?

FWIW, those in the past who lynched were certainly positive they were dispensing justice to the young black man who may have glanced twice at a white woman. They were certain they were in the right, this crowd is certain they are right.

They may be right, they may be wrong, but sound reasoning and careful weighing of the evidence is rarely one of a mobs strong points.

Guilty or innocent... would you want your fate in their hands?

The problem here is that you're doing it again. You've already concluded that these crowds are mobs. They simply aren't - but because you are choosing to characterize them as such, you are measuring what they do by the same standards you'd apply to a mob.

There are similarities in that they are a crowd of like-minded people who are angry. But they are not storming the gates - they are protesting and loudly making their case. Assuming they are just a mob dismisses the substance of what they are saying. If you dismiss them outright, you miss the opportunity to fix what's possibly broken and run the risk of making thing worse.

It's that very same thing that made Zimmerman do what he did, what made the LEO's not do what they did not do, and why that crowd is now doing what they are doing.

IMO, you should try to look for why first instead of deciding why, then looking for evidence that supports it.

 

[Deleted member 92857]

The problem here is that you're doing it again. You've already concluded that these crowds are mobs. They simply aren't - but because you are choosing to characterize them as such, you are measuring what they do by the same standards you'd apply to a mob.

There are similarities in that they are a crowd of like-minded people who are angry. But they are not storming the gates - they are protesting and loudly making their case. Assuming they are just a mob dismisses the substance of what they are saying. If you dismiss them outright, you miss the opportunity to fix what's possibly broken and run the risk of making thing worse.

It's that very same thing that made Zimmerman do what he did, what made the LEO's not do what they did not do, and why that crowd is now doing what they are doing.

IMO, you should try to look for why first instead of deciding why, then looking for evidence that supports it.

All I'm saying is we have a justice system in this country. I'd rather be facing the justice system than those angry people in the street. And those angry people have already decided that law enforcement hasn't done their job, and I'll bet law enforcement has spent more time and money investigating than the angry crowd. And the angry crowd doesn't seem to willing to wait for a judge or jury to decide guilt or innocence either, and that's a right guaranteed by the constitution.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Thanks for picking on Mississippi and Alabama, as everyone knows, ours are the only two states were racism exists, and where any young black man was ever lynched. And of course all Alabamians participated, we are quite monolithic in our thuoghts and actions.

If you are black, there are some vacation destinations in Idaho you may find educational. Look for the swastikas and you'll find them. We don't have any of those in Alabama, Michael Donald's mother helped us get rid of them.

EDIT: Not picking on everyone in Idaho, just pointing out that you'll find racism outside of Alabama and Mississippi.

So you advocate for mob justice?

They may be right, they may be wrong, but sound reasoning and careful weighing of the evidence is rarely one of a mobs strong points.

Guilty or innocent... would you want your fate in their hands?

You brought up the image of a lynch mob, no one else. Calling them a lynch mob is a way to delegitimize their legal protest, something everyone in this country has a right to do.

The fact is that if Trayvon Martin had not been killed, if the Sanford PD had not been inadequate in their work, the protestors would be going about their normal lives.

 

[GregC]

Thanks for picking on Mississippi and Alabama, as everyone knows, ours are the only two states were racism exists, and where any young black man was ever lynched. And of course all Alabamians participated, we are quite monolithic in our thuoghts and actions.

If you are black, there are some vacation destinations in Idaho you may find educational. Look for the swastikas and you'll find them. We don't have any of those in Alabama, Michael Donald's mother helped us get rid of them.

EDIT: Not picking on everyone in Idaho, just pointing out that you'll find racism outside of Alabama and Mississippi.

He was talking strictly about lynching in response to your bringing it up. Where racism exists is a different story, but the history is what it is. Here's one count of lynchings by state. Miss. is #1, Alabama is fifth.
Lynching Statistics

 

[malthumb]

Thanks for picking on Mississippi and Alabama, as everyone knows, ours are the only two states were racism exists, and where any young black man was ever lynched. And of course all Alabamians participated, we are quite monolithic in our thuoghts and actions.

Another leap of logic. Because I only mentioned Alabama and Mississippi you think that I believe they are unique in harboring racist points of view and (your words here) where any young black man was ever lynched. And of course all Alabamians participated... Please highlight anywhere that I said something that can be remotely interpreted as such. I chose those two states because I have documented history to back up what I said. I'm sure that most of the people in those two states are fine upstanding citizens. But I can show documented proof that some were not.

If you are black, there are some vacation destinations in Idaho you may find educational. Look for the swastikas and you'll find them. We don't have any of those in Alabama, Michael Donald's mother helped us get rid of them.

<let me check.....yep....still black >. I don't have to go to Idaho. I can just drive about 45 minutes from where I live to visit a KNOWN Klan / white supremacist gathering point. Probably pass a few i don't know about on the way. I'll pass on the vacation advice. Idiots live in a lot of places. Thankfully the good people outnumber them.

EDIT: Not picking on everyone in Idaho, just pointing out that you'll find racism outside of Alabama and Mississippi.

You say that as if it surprises me. News flash... I know that....I also know that there are waaaay more reasonable and rationale people in Alabama and Mississippi than there are fools and clowns.

So you advocate for mob justice?

No. But I fiercely support the right to assemble in peaceful protest. And I support the duty of law enforcement to arrest those who decide that protests should be anything other than peaceful.

They may be right, they may be wrong, but sound reasoning and careful weighing of the evidence is rarely one of a mobs strong points.

You seem to have difficulty differentiating a protest gathering from a mob. I say that, of course, thinking that you are implying mob = violence. If I am wrong in that assertion, please correct me.

Guilty or innocent... would you want your fate in their hands?

What makes you think Zimmerman's fate is in their hands? That IS a serious question. Zimmerman's fate is, at least at this point, in the hands of the FBI and the grand jury investigating this issue. Everyone else is just tossing opinions. Some louder than others.

 

[nutdog]

So did anyone listen to the "possible racial slur" recording and conclude it was an actual racial slur?

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Suggesting that protesters want to override the justice system is unfair, they were protesting the systems inaction. The simple fact was that got nearly three weeks after Trayvon's death, nothing happened. Two weeks after public pressure starts , there is a federal investigation and the Seminole County grand jury convenes. We cannot prove a negative, but I think most feel public pressure made things happen.

 

[seventhson]

I'm glad that the overwhelming majority of people posting in this thread are sane and rational. As to the others? "Wow" is all I have to say, and thank you TB for the "ignore" functionality.

 

[guy n. cognito]

I'm glad that the overwhelming majority of people posting in this thread are sane and rational. As to the others? "Wow" is all I have to say, and thank you TB for the "ignore" functionality.

Speaking of.......

 

[peledog]

Zimmerman is going down. There is absolutely nothing that I've read (and yes more 'facts' are coming out, slowly) that exonerates him in the court of public opinion. He doles out his own form of justice, carries a weapon - this ain't no skittles gun - when neighborhood watch people aren't allowed to apparently - he claims self defense by shooting a kid 100lbs lighter in the chest. A kid! All this after being being told by 911/police to 'stop' following the kid. Sounds like a power-hungry, mentally mal-adjusted, insecure man to me. And probably thinks he justified. I don't see how anyone, at this point, with the facts we have from the media, could form any other opinion. That being said, it's up to the FBI and other authorities now. How many thought OJ Simpson was guilty before he faced a verdict, let alone arraignment?

A totally senseless killing.

 

[Dr_Funkdamental]

Speaking of.......

Well played LMBOOO!

 

[aborgman]

I don't think he's advocating mob justice. He said "crowds that are asking justice to do its job" - that's a far different thing than the crowd carrying out what it perceives justice to be, which is how I'd define mob justice.

I don't think the crowds will be happy with "justice"=="rule of law".

They'll only be happy if "justice" == "there personal opinion of what should happen".

 

[tZer]

All I'm saying is we have a justice system in this country. I'd rather be facing the justice system than those angry people in the street. And those angry people have already decided that law enforcement hasn't done their job, and I'll bet law enforcement has spent more time and money investigating than the angry crowd. And the angry crowd doesn't seem to willing to wait for a judge or jury to decide guilt or innocence either, and that's a right guaranteed by the constitution.

You forgot to say, "what about the children!?!?"