Any relation...Behringer/Ashdown???

[Mark Reccord]

remember that behringer used to be a high quality, upper price brand many a year ago, but i spose they decided that they werent gonna be around for much longer if they kept their products and prices the way they are....

When? Certainly not since it's been available in North America.

but talkbass is the only place where i hear behringer thrashing, and im sure half of you who are bashing behringer havent actually had any experience with the gear they are bashing, me, ive had a behringer practise amp the last 3 years and it hasnt skipped a beat, after almost daily use, minimum of 2 hours at a time, and i know many people who use behringer gear and love it and have had no problems, even people who have ditched fender twin amps for the v-ampire amp.....

but if players like alphonso johnson and helmut hatter endorse the v-amp, it makes you wonder, also since they designed most of the patches on the unit

You've been leading a sheltered life if you think TB is the only place where people have problems with the way Behringer does business. Check out any pro audio forum for instance.

People endorse what they are paid to endorse. I don't see someone endorsing Behringer as a vindication of their questionable business practices.

 

[heath_the_great]

Name one.

ultra di 100
tweakalizer dfx69
vintager ac108
ultrabass bx1200
ultrabass bx600
ultrabass bx300
thunderbird bx108
eurolight blm420
b-control audio model bca2000
tube composer t1952
v-verb pro rev2496

 

[heath_the_great]

When? Certainly not since it's been available in North America.

late 80's

You've been leading a sheltered life if you think TB is the only place where people have problems with the way Behringer does business.

i dont think its the only place, im saying where ive heard, i have no problems with their buisness practises, look at microsoft, biggest blatent rip off ever and bill gates earns how many million per hour? and his software is bought over any other..look at gibson and fender, they both buy out other brands and put it out at lower quality...look at the spirt series, the tobias basses put out by gibson....then fender with swr now, my local store got a workingmans 8004 recently and after a week of being in the store the entire front panel had peeled due to the rust on the front panel...i know its different to the behringer deal, but is it right that if they buy a brand, makes the product cheaper but still charges the same price, does that make it alright?

all electronic equipment is bound to fail eventually, ive heard bad things about people with mesa boogie amps and ampeg....

 

[bigbeefdog]

You've been leading a sheltered life if you think TB is the only place where people have problems with the way Behringer does business. Check out any pro audio forum for instance.

People endorse what they are paid to endorse. I don't see someone endorsing Behringer as a vindication of their questionable business practices.

I do understand the "questionable business practices" argument. Really, I do. It's not complex.

But this stuff is pervasive. It's EVERYWHERE. The entire tech sector of our economy functions this way.


And I suppose I have a hard time understanding the mindset of the individual who, perhaps:

- drives home from work in his Camaro (pony-car concept copied from Ford's Mustang),

- while he listens to his Sirius satellite radio (concept copied from XM Radio),

- watches a couple of "reality" prime time shows (do you really think ALL the networks thought up this concept simultaneously?), followed by a "crime scene forensics" show (ditto), possibly recorded on his ReplayTV (copied from TiVo),

- spends 45 minutes practicing on his SX Jazz Bass clone (I don't really have to say it, do I?),

- switches on his "IBM clone" PC... possibly powered by an AMD (reverse-engineered from Intel) processor... which in turn fires up his "Mac clone" Windows operating system... opens up Internet Explorer (the subject of a recent anti-trust lawsuit brought by Netscape)...

....and logs on to TalkBass, or any other board, to bash Behringer for their "copycat" business model.

It confuses me.

 

[cgworkman]

The guys from Ashdown are the guys from Trace Elliot.

On a more positive note... I've always been a Trace Elliot fan. However, since they've went the way of the Dodo - and my current Trace is on it's last leg - How comparable is TE to Ashdown tone wise? I've never had the opportunity to sample any of Ashdown's products.

 

[cgworkman]

I do understand the "questionable business practices" argument. Really, I do. It's not complex.

But this stuff is pervasive. It's EVERYWHERE. The entire tech sector of our economy functions this way.


And I suppose I have a hard time understanding the mindset of the individual who, perhaps:

- drives home from work in his Camaro (pony-car concept copied from Ford's Mustang),

- while he listens to his Sirius satellite radio (concept copied from XM Radio),

- watches a couple of "reality" prime time shows (do you really think ALL the networks thought up this concept simultaneously?), followed by a "crime scene forensics" show (ditto), possibly recorded on his ReplayTV (copied from TiVo),

- spends 45 minutes practicing on his SX Jazz Bass clone (I don't really have to say it, do I?),

- switches on his "IBM clone" PC... possibly powered by an AMD (reverse-engineered from Intel) processor... which in turn fires up his "Mac clone" Windows operating system... opens up Internet Explorer (the subject of a recent anti-trust lawsuit brought by Netscape)...

....and logs on to TalkBass, or any other board, to bash Behringer for their "copycat" business model.

It confuses me.

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[lbanks]

I'm more pissed at Gibson for their "Buy up and Destroy" tactics than I am at Behringer's cheap equipment.

 

[Mark Reccord]

ultra di 100
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Look familiar? The Behringer is a direct copy, right down to the PCB layout.

tweakalizer dfx69: DJ stuff, not familiar.

vintager ac108: Looks a lot like a Crate.

ultrabass bx1200
ultrabass bx600
ultrabass bx300-These are copies of the Hartke Kickback series.

thunderbird bx108
eurolight blm420
Not familiar with these.

b-control audio model bca2000: They've quit copying Mackie cosmetically but I have a hunch there's still some copying going on.
tube composer t1952: Various Drawmer products
v-verb pro rev2496: Looks a lot like the Yamaha REV-500

So, with a cursory glance most of these products have been identified as copies. I'd suspect the others are as well, but I'm not going to waste any time trying to prove it.

At any rate, people have to make their own decisions, I'm not trying to sway anyone. Personally, I won't ever buy any of their stuff, because of blatant ripoff of the intellectual property of others and because of the multiple horrible experiences I have personally had with their 'pro' audio stuff.

Behringer has only been in existance since 1989. I remember their pro audio stuff from that period. It wasn't very good.

 

[heath_the_great]

id say the ultrabass1200 is a copy of a hartke kickback, considering its the only one that is angled and has a aluminium driver...the others arent even angled or have aluminium drivers..and i dont recall the hartke kickbacks having a built in octaver or 2 channel....i may be wrong..

but i still like to see some evidence of these exact copies of pcb layouts..has anyone here actually done a side by side comparison and have photographic proof?..i hear about it but i havent seen it myself

 

[Colarndo]

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Let me start: Compared these.

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Let the fun begin! List down all the Behringer clones and the "originals"

 

[bigbeefdog]

but i still like to see some evidence of these exact copies of pcb layouts..has anyone here actually done a side by side comparison and have photographic proof?..i hear about it but i havent seen it myself

Perhaps they are. Many seem very, very close.

But frankly.... does it make any difference?

If Behringer folks were to spend an afternoon or two (which is about all it would take), with the model they chose to copy.... moving things around a bit, changing the layout of the knobs, getting the circuit boards rearranged slightly differently.... would it be any *less* of a copy?

And would it take any *less* of a bite out of the sales of the model they copied when it hits the shelves, with virtually identical specs, at a significantly lower price?

IMHO, I don't think so.

This actually makes a case for "covering your tracks".... reverse-engineer it, but change it just enough to avoid legal consequences.... and that isn't the most ethical business model either.

Like I said, it's the way of the tech industry.

 

[cgworkman]

On a more positive note... I've always been a Trace Elliot fan. However, since they've went the way of the Dodo - and my current Trace is on it's last leg - How comparable is TE to Ashdown tone wise? I've never had the opportunity to sample any of Ashdown's products.

Bump

 

[robb.]

- drives home from work in his Camaro (pony-car concept copied from Ford's Mustang),

do they use the same seats? metal body panels? engines? spark plugs? steering wheels? there is nothing unethical about trying to build a better (or simply differen) mousetrap to appeal to a different aesthetic in the mousetrap-buying market.

- while he listens to his Sirius satellite radio (concept copied from XM Radio),

again, concept similarity. do they use the exact same receivers and antennae?

- watches a couple of "reality" prime time shows (do you really think ALL the networks thought up this concept simultaneously?)

yes, if NBC re-aired episodes of Fox's "Joe Millionaire" but put it under a different title and maybe altered some of the onscreen text, it'd be EXACTLY the same as behringer's model. until that day, it may be the same in concept, but there are significant intellectual differences -- actually casting and developing a show that, while similar in concept, contains zero original content of the original.

- spends 45 minutes practicing on his SX Jazz Bass clone (I don't really have to say it, do I?),

actually, until someone measures every single dimension, specification, and component of the bass and proves that infringes upon design concepts that aren't in the public domain, you really do have to say it.

- switches on his "IBM clone" PC... possibly powered by an AMD (reverse-engineered from Intel) processor... which in turn fires up his "Mac clone" Windows operating system... opens up Internet Explorer (the subject of a recent anti-trust lawsuit brought by Netscape)...

IBM manufactured a specific product and outsourced its chips and operating system. bad idea. others were able to manufacture competitive systems using the same, non-proprietary parts.

and in the case of netscape and IE, the ultimate irony of it is that IE is based on NCSA mosaic, which netscape had originally defeated in the battle for browser supremacy. i actually used netscape until IE4.0, from which time IE has been siginificantly superior to netscape for my personal uses. in any case, there haven't been any infringements of intelletual property, so i can't fathom why you introduced this example.

It confuses me.

it confuses you because you're a moron. there is a significant difference between "concept" and "detail".

robb.

 

[IvanMike]

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[Nick man]

Mackie was coppied by Behrniger.

Where are they now?

 

[robb.]

i should also add that while most of you do not work for an audio manufacturer, i do. i can attest to the effects of behringer's practices -- not just for those whose designs have been stolen, but for the entire industry, which has been experienced a tremendous paradigm shift due to illegal and unethical practices.

i have friends who have lost jobs at this company -- not due to performance, but due to company-wide payroll reductions.

and all of this because people refuse to live within their means. because they refuse to bear responsibility for their choices. because they don't want to make a choice between cable TV and a bass.

for example, i would have $420 more every year if i got dialup instead of cable internet, but i'm not out complaining about how i can't afford an ibanez BTB510e. instead, i am saving the cash and trying to sell small items to make up the difference. i would have about the same amount if i got long distance through my landline phone instead of having a cell phone that i use for that.

no one has a right to cable, heat, a computer, electricity, water, a cell phone, or even a landline phone. we choose to spend our money on these things. after all of that, not having money for bass gear does not justify making an unethical decision, whether you have zero or ten children.

you live by the choices you make. don't cry to me about how expensive gear is. make it a priority if that's what you truly want to own.

robb.

 

[bigbeefdog]

it confuses you because you're a moron. there is a significant difference between "concept" and "detail".

robb.

No, robb, there isn't.

In each and every case I mentioned above, the motivation is the same.... "Let's keep an eye on what our competitor is doing, and if they come up with an idea that zings, we can hurry our own version to market and capitalize..."

EXACTLY the same thing. And as I said in a different post, it really doesn't matter whether they change a few details, or not.

I think the marketing term is "stealing market share". And it takes a bite out of the profits of the developer.

Just ask Lee Iacocca.

BTW, thanks for the compliment. You must have been speaking to my wife.

 

[robb.]

concept: achieving market share

detail: how

illumination: there is a significant difference in developing your own iteration of a concept and copying, detail for detail, someone else's iteration.

i continue to illustrate the difference and you continue on not acknowledging (or worse, not comprehending).

robb.

 

[Minimalist]

I find the “Behringer is the devil” attitude very biased. First if Behringer’s practices were illegal do you really think they would get away with it? A company that is capable of setting up a production line in China is certainly capable of hiring an attorney.

Second, who’s to decide what’s ethical or not? Is it ethical to buy a $2,000 instrument/amp or whatever while kids are starving? Behringer is obviously using loopholes. Millions of taxpayers are doing that every day. And if manufacturers don’t choose to protect their designs etc. oh well…..

 

[bigbeefdog]

concept: achieving market share

detail: how

illumination: there is a significant difference in developing your own iteration of a concept and copying, detail for detail, someone else's iteration.

i continue to illustrate the difference and you continue on not acknowledging (or worse, not comprehending).

robb.

robb,

It is you who are failing to comprehend. :scowl:

Let me try one last time.

You mentioned that you work for an audio manufacturer. Let's say that your company puts a product to market, and the concept is well received by the buying public. They start flying off the shelves. Profits are up. Bonuses up as well. All is good.

Unbeknownst to you and your company, a competitor has purchased one, and it has been hot-shotted to their tech lab for a reverse-engineering project. Within weeks, a *doggone similar* product is sitting next to yours, on the shelves of all the stores, with a price tag that is 50% of what yours carries. Their specs are the same, and the price is so low, that your company (having absorbed all the R&D costs for your version) cannot sell that low without losing money.

Does it REALLY make any difference if your competitor made a few quick & inexpensive "iterations" to the concept, or if they copied yours "detail for detail"? Are you, and your company, going to be any less "damaged" if the cloner moves a few knobs around, changes the size of the case, or rearranges the PCB in the unit?

Of course not.

And, of course, the cloner would usurp some of your market share, costing your company revenue, and possibly triggering the reductions in workforce that you (quite understandably) lament.

This will remain true whether the clone is copied "detail for detail", or not. In this case, the devil is not in the details - it is in the reverse-engineering of the concept itself, which produces a competing, cheaper product.

It's unfortunate. It's cutthroat. But it's the way of the tech industry.

And it's no different than that Microsoft Windows interface that you may possibly be using - the basis of which Apple originally put to market.