Any tips on how to be ok with bad drummer?

[Count Bassie]

Let it roll. It's a band, and that encompasses a very broad range of elements, dynamics, relationships, levels of talent and possibilities.
If you're doing well, enjoy it while it wants to last. If you see the waterfall/spillway coming, don't panic. Let it roll, let the drama unfold and don't let it take you with it- that's the kind of thing you don't want putting a handle on you, and ruining your good time.

Enjoy what you have and know the limitations of it. If people see you handling yourself with confidence in an unstable scene, they're likely to remember that about you. As a bass player that's a very good thing.

 

[TheMartianBassist]

Not possible for me.
I'll quit and keep on looking until I find a group with a solid drummer.

 

[bdplaid]

I'm not asking how to make the drummer better, how to replace him, how to tell him he's not good enough, or any of that. I'm hoping someone has a new perspective I haven't thought of for ways to keep me from losing my mind or quitting the band I've spent almost 2 years working my butt off for.

Back story:

The drummer is older than all of us, has been playing longer than any of us, and is just not very good. The issue is, he doesn't practice, and while a good musician lets layman comments like "You guys are so awesome!" roll right off like a bead of water, every compliment my drummer hears is like a galvanization for why he doesn't need to try harder. It's maddening.

The problem is, this whole band was his idea. He named it, he put it in motion, he gathered the initial personnel, he managed every move of the band when it was in its infancy, and he has been instrumental in the business side of things - which, let's be honest, is no small contribution.

When I was approached about joining the band, the reasoning I was given for why they were replacing the guy they had before me was that he wasn't committed to the band, didn't want to rehearse, and didn't want to be an actual member of the group. He didn't want to help promote, write, or any other responsibility for a true band member. They said they wanted someone who could rehearse at least once a week, but more than likely twice a week, wanted someone who wasn't afraid to put in some work, and who could contribute ideas and move things forward. So I joined the band with a fair warning to the rest of the group that I don't do anything half-heartedly, and that I was only joining this band because the dedication they were expecting of me seemed like it must be something they all had themselves. Everyone was on the same page, I thought.

We released our first CD in June, and it has sold well locally. Everything is going well for us. We played a huge festival this summer in front of thousands of people, we've been on regional radio and tv, have shared the stage with countless big names in the past couple years, and everything just keeps getting bigger and better.

But as the opportunities get bigger and the stakes get higher, I constantly think about how much his drumming limits us. His tempos fluctuate greatly, he forces fills he can't play into spaces he can't fit them into, and he can't hold on to his sticks to save his life. He's not an awful drummer, he just NEVER PRACTICES. We've openly addressed the issues as a band, and I've been straight with him. I've told him I'd like him to find another bass player if he won't put the same time and effort into being the best he can be that the rest of us put into our own instruments.

It remains to be seen whether or not he will put in the effort, but everyone in the band is on the same page as I am. Like I said, though, this whole thing is his baby, which gives us few options. The other guys have even talked about starting a new band without the drummer, but starting over from scratch isn't attractive to any of us, as we've all poured ourselves into this. The ultimate win-win would be for the drummer to step up his game and make the band as good as it could be.

But if he won't, does anyone know any tricks to letting go a bit? I get so much anxiety on stage when he flubs a simple, routine song that I just want to walk off the stage. Maybe I'm being too critical, but I don't know how to calm down, relax, and let things slide. Part of the problem is that I take his refusal to practice his drums as a personal affront, and as blatant disrespect. I don't know how to get over that and keep things on the rails.

Sorry for ranting/whining. I don't want this chapter of my musical journey to be over, but I don't know how to keep going without driving myself crazy.

Thanks in advance,
Jacob

Lots to say about this.

I was in a similar situation long ago, only it involved the female singer. I brought in more than half the players, but it was her baby. I worked and worked with that band to get it off the ground, we all did; weeks in the basement and it was killer. Then on opening night at one of the coolest places in town, she played nearly the entire night with her back to the audience, and choked on everything. Total stage fright. The band all had a meeting, and we left within a few days, to form one of the most memorable bands I have been in (and that's a lot!).

I feel badly for her, but the thing we realized and you need to as well is that at some point, so much work has been put in by EVERYONE that the ownership of the group belongs to everyone. And, very importantly, there are reputations on the line.

I believe you've done quite a bit right in this situation. If it were me, I'd call a band meeting that is the Come-to-Jesus moment. He'd be told in no uncertain terms that the band has gotten to a point where he is holding things back. It's embarrassing for you all, as professional players, to be tolerating amateurish sh!t like bad fills, poor tempo and dropping a multitude of sticks. Really, there are better drummers every weekend at the local VFW. It's bad musicianship and lousy stagecraft. He either needs to raise his game, or he's out. For me, any argument from him would end the conversation in a phone call to the next drummer.

On a personal level, when I have to work for any length of time with a bad drummer, I always worried about being "infected" with his poor sense of time and lack of groove. I would always be sure to practice tempos in my daily routine to be sure these drummers didn't foul me up, because they can.

A bad drummer just makes everything bad. It makes the band struggle to sound good, and especially makes the bass sound terrible.

The idea of breaking away isn't a bad one, but since you guys have all put in so much, I say either evict him in favor of someone up to your abilities, or find a new place for him. Perhaps on the business side of things? A manger? Soundman? Something within his abilities.

Good luck, this is a tough one.

 

[TitaniumRx]

Playing at home through headphones and NO gig is infinitely better than playing a single gig with a bad drummer

So true!!!

 

[Honch]

This is one of the harshest responses I have ever seen on TB.

Must be nice, living in such a black and white world.

Me? I've lived long enough to know that there is no perfect, EVERY situation, EVERY decision, every relationship, involves compromise, period.
.

So be it. I wont suffer fools gladly anymore. I did my dog years. Mind you, the question was:

Any tips on how to be ok with bad drummer?

Think of the opposite. If the question was from the drummer: How to be ok with the other guys in the band?
Why is there only ONE that has to change? And not the other?
Remember that they're IN A BAND, it's not a solo gig where you're allowed to make any changes to tempo at the spot, without counting in or telling anyone in advance. You're totally free. It takes more than two to tango, and in this case, as I have seen with others, and through my experience, is that the drummer is the BL, and are the one calling the shots, just so he can get away with this, nothing else. Because he wont fit in any other band, no one would hire him anyway. He wouldn't work as a side man at all, and hired musician. That's all. That's why he started his own thing so he can have a lot of turnover and revolving door members that gets fed up with him and still get it running. Eventually time will catch up. It seems a bit Snowflake Generation thing to me. Cognitive Bias (DK syndrome). Look it up if you don't mind.

If there's no one telling him that he sucks, how will he ever get to know his shortcomings?

To me it's the equivalent when you're very young and trying to ride a bicycle. Eventually, most people will get the hang of it. This seems to me, that no matter how much he'll practice, he'll never get the hang of it. Does he knows how to ride a bicycle? (we know how he is about riding cymbals).

Why suffer fools gladly?
Why flogging a dead horse?
Just leave.

 

[MegaSwing]

Not possible for me.
I'll quit and keep on looking until I find a group with a solid drummer.

I try, but this is what inevitably happens.

My takeaway when it comes to playing with musicians who aren't up to whatever the task is, is that no matter how well you play your own part, the group will never sound better than its weakest member. (And drumming is so critical.) If you don't have fundamental competence everywhere, no single player can raise the bar for the entire band. Even if one player is absolutely great, he/she'll just seem like a fish out of water.

It can be a tough thing, too. Even bad drummers love playing with me.

EDIT: Lest anyone think my ego is oversize, I have been the best player as well as the worst player in the equation. To paraphrase Sonny Liston, 'Music a funny thing.'

 

[pbass2]

#4 - Probably the most hit or miss one, because there's video of us playing from an event we spent time prepping for, so it's not as glaring as some of our other shows, and I think he sees those videos and assumes he always plays like that. Like I've said, he's not an awful drummer, he just doesn't practice. For reference of how he plays when he does practice, here's this video. (There's a missed stop around 3:00 and a missed stop at the end. Not egregious errors whatsoever, but this is a show that was taken seriously and prepped for. Imagine a show that's not viewed as "important"...) This video was part of an entire show they aired during an Easter Seals Telethon.

That's not nearly as bad as I expected! I think if he put the time into practicing with a click he could get into shape pretty fast. When he comes out of fills he tends to lag a bit, but otherwise I think he's got it in him. Overall the band doesn't have that kind of "undeniable pocket" that we all strive for, and it's likely mostly him, but if the whole band practices to a click it could really help. At least if you and he can get it really locked down and confident then the guitar players can float around a bit on top. As it is it feels a little like it's about to pull apart, but mind you, not that bad at all. Love the harmony guitar solo

 

[Bass Viking]

Consider it a challenge to try and learn and predict his errors and lock in with them. Being off together is better than being off apart.
Embrace the concept that being off is part of being human and therefore better than mechanical perfection.
All great works of art have a flaw or eccentricity that defines them to set them apart. This guy's funky drumming is part of your band's "thing".

I doubt this will work in the long term. You can only kid yourself for so long.

It is not going to make you a worse or less disciplined bassist. If anything, it will make you better. Locking into a drum macjhine is easy.
Learning how to form a psychic musical bond and lock in with another person is a rare skill. It takes practice.

This idea that you can become better by playing with sub standard musicians is a myth. And the goal is to make great music, not doing damage control or covering for someone else's deficiencies.

 

[Roxbororob]

Jacob I hope your still there. I read almost all of the posts, I found some of the responses a "wee bit harsh" when comparing them to statements you made in your OP. I watched the video, ya I heard the extra beat at 3:00...buddy you need to show me something worse than that.

Recap:
You didnt quit a band to join this one (my assumption).
Your doing big gigs selling CD`s appearing on TV etc etc.
The big bang everyone is afraid of hasnt happened yet.
The guy is not a drunk and is responsible.
He is the founding member and did most of the legwork...
He aint the best drummer but certainly isnt horrible (almost your own words, seen the video).

I suggest you filter the good advice from the bad advice in the 7 some odd pages of responses and you will know what you need to do. Otherwise find a better gig if you can.

and yes you can always teach an old dog new tricks.

 

[Bass Viking]

he forces fills he can't play into spaces he can't fit them into

A real musician will serve the song, not play something just because he can (or in this case, CAN'T). Much better to play something simple.

 

[Honch]

My experiences in bands have led me to a different perspective from Honch's, above. Rather than getting confrontational about people screwing stuff up, I get better outcomes if I go low key and take care to avoid jeopardizing people's "face" in the social environment of a band.

It doesn't always work, no. But IME a confrontational tone tends to trigger people's defensiveness more than serve as constructive, actionable feedback on a performance problem.

But the main difference here is the following. Stated clearly by the OP:
"Part of the problem is that I take his refusal to practice his drums as a personal affront, and as blatant disrespect."

and especially that he struts about it, and he's probably frightened by his own talent, just because he's older than the rest of the guys. The main thing is that I condone things, and do concessions, if the musician (any) acknowledges his shortcomings, and makes an effort and tries to do anything about it. That's why you're all rehearsing in the first place. What else is there? If he demands this from all others in the band, but absolutely nothing of himself, it's then when I turn red and tell him up front. Because I've already tried all the other options first (of course!) but nothing seems to help. It's the flaunting, bragging and strutting about their own superiority that triggers me. If it was sort of humble, and in an open way, and taken in and listening to others, I would be more mild in my criticism. This is the most important thing, their own strutting about how bloody good they are. That one has to come first, before I put my foot down. Or really, that is the straw that will break the camels back.

In any band, it's most important to listen to others. Not only musically, but when you're talking about it too. He doesn't do that.

It seems just that it all turns out as a weird Karaoke band for him. A live backing track for him to play drums to. But instead of vocals, it's drums. And you know, vocals at Karaokes can be worse than so so and people don't give a f*. If the vocals flops the backing track still runs...same here it seems.

Make sure of one thing: If the drummer should hire any other musician in this band, that was equal to him on their respective instruments and no development in sight, just imagine how it all would end up sounding in the end. He would sure then come forward and say "hey look"... but he himself? no way josé...

Here's an example of this, as it all would end up like:

 

[singlemalt]

Jacob, I'd suggest you pull the plug on this thread. There's way too much personal info. Social media and Google moves way too fast.

If I had to make guess, this thread keeps going, the OP won't have to make any adjustments, mental or otherwise. Somebody else will jump on that bass chair and smile all the way to the paychecks and after party. Because this king of slagging on your band on the Internet will get you fired.

I watched the video, the guy was solid enough for what's going on.

Fwiw, I liked the harmony guitar bits, the band in general and the bass playing. It cries out for backing vocals, and a bit more swagger and confidence, but glaring drum problems is not my take away.

It looks like a good gig to me.

 

[Honch]

There is one mitigating situation though: If all of the material would be originals and written by him only. Then you could get away with some kind of prog/avant garde thing...

You didn't tell us from the start if the CD is full of originals or covers. If it's a cover band... no excuses.

 

[Honch]

To OP: Be careful with showing that video. You may reveal too much and disclose peoples identity, and who they are. Mind you, I've heard worse bands, (way worse) and definitely way worse drummers! I wouldn't notice this if I just passed by an open air festival stage with numerous bands playing. I mean, notice the drumming. I would just stop, for a minute, and then walk on, because it's just not my taste of music, but well performed anyway.

I've even left bands who had perfect tempo drummers, did perfect fill ins, could improvise, jam, but when a few years passed... not developed. Not being faster, better, but... just... developed. And didn't wan't to. Same with other musicians. The development, and chemistry that years of rehearsal builds up has to lead to somewhere. But this is mostly preevalent in jazz music, and/or improvised music. If it's all carved in stone, like a cover band, there's only so much you can change or develop.

The peculiar thing you told us about is that "he seems to shape up on more grand gigs..." which puzzles me a bit. The wording "seems to". Is that shaping up "in him" anyway, but it's his lackadaisical mentality?
Do you do weed before the gigs? ... skip that. Big time. At least him. If he did weed way back but has stopped, it might have buzzed him the wrong way for good.

EDIT: There may be some kind of "hack" thing in him. You know, being very able and good anyway, but lacking the inner drive to pursue and let his art bloom out in a way it hasn't been done in before. Not being a true artists that makes changes to music style so everyone copies it, but you know... he's own art, skills, music.

 

[Nev375]

I doubt this will work in the long term. You can only kid yourself for so long.



This idea that you can become better by playing with sub standard musicians is a myth. And the goal is to make great music, not doing damage control or covering for someone else's deficiencies.

I respect your opinion, but I have to disagree.

The idea that music HAS to be rock solid and tight to be good is a narrow minded view. There were a lot of very loose grunge bands in the early 90s that were very successful. I know of at least one band that had to replace a drummer at some point and they rejected several because the leader thought they were too solid and good. They wanted a bit of sloppiness. I'm pretty sure it was the smashing pumpkins, but i might be misremembering. They were quite successful though.

Of course that's a niche genre and it's probably not going to fly in a prog metal band. But the point is that there are no rules or formula for success in art and music. Anything can happen. And what is considered crap today might be tomorrows big thing.

 

[swafran]

part of my problem is this constant fear that eventually someone who knows what's what will hear us and expose us as a fraud based on these flubs from the drummer. That may be an irrational fear, but it gives me anxiety, nonetheless.

If his time slips, he misses his fills, and drops his sticks, I guarantee you many people can hear it.

But I didn't see that on the video you showed. I saw the missed stop you pointed out. That's bad but not the train wreck you described in your original post.

 

[bdplaid]

This is one of the harshest responses I have ever seen on TB.

What interests me is all the armchair psychiatry that goes on on TB.

Me? I've lived long enough to know that there is no perfect, EVERY situation, EVERY decision, every relationship, involves compromise, period.

I think that's true. My drummer does some craziness with rolls, too; comes out of them wrong most times. But, he knows when he does it, and he's like a groove machine otherwise.

As we all know, the shortcomings of you drummer are likely only apparent to the band, other musicians, and a very small segment of the population with increased musical awareness. The rest have no idea, if they did, you wouldn't be getting the gigs and building momentum.

I don't know how any of us can know that without hearing the OP's band. Audiences are notoriously ignorant of music (proof: pop music).

I think music can be about many things: a paycheck, getting chicks, etc. But for me, it's mostly about having a good time playing. If it's not fun I'm not doing it. Being realistic, there's always bad every time one has to work with other humans, musicians in particular. But as you suggest, there must be not just a balance, but a preponderance of positive over the negative.

And what the OP describes would send me screaming into the night.

 

[bdplaid]

The idea that music HAS to be rock solid and tight to be good is a narrow minded view. There were a lot of very loose grunge bands in the early 90s that were very successful. I know of at least one band that had to replace a drummer at some point and they rejected several because the leader thought they were too solid and good.

I suspect the Rolling Stones share your view.

 

[bdplaid]

Hmmm...

part of my problem is this constant fear that eventually someone who knows what's what will hear us and expose us as a fraud based on these flubs from the drummer. That may be an irrational fear, but it gives me anxiety, nonetheless.

A fraud? Like Milli Vanilli?

It's just that I sometimes feel like our drummer keeps me from buying in to the notion we deserve to be on some of the stages we get to play.

Deserve? As in, uh, Milli Vanilli? Any act that pleases people and puts arses in the seats deserves to be wherever they are. Even Milli Vanilli.

When I told him I wanted him to start looking for another bass player, he didn't really say anything. Several days passed, and last night I met him for a couple hours and we had a good discussion about a number of things. I think he might finally "get it" about practicing now, but time will tell.

And maybe he was pondering the possibility of having more fun without your nagging?

After seeing this, I might be thinking the problem lies elsewhere... Do you maybe think you guys have to be better than you are to be where you are in your careers? Which is utter nonsense.

I'm starting to think you might want to lighten up. At the risk of calling myself an armchair psychiatrist, does OCD run in your family?

But I wish I could've seen the video. I looked, and alas, it seems to be gone. sigh.

 

[Miker1627]

Decent players with great chemistry trump great players with weak chemistry. IMHO.

If you're having success as advertised, you're doing something right. Enjoy the ride. Obsession with the negative is the path to the dark side. Like Yoda I sound. Positive relationships are based on honesty (with yourself as well as with others) and communication. Be honest, be straight, let the band know how you feel and express your desire to improve as a whole. Your passion conveys a real need for change. Lay it down, they'll pick it up or you might need to pack it up Freddie King style. If you're playing for fun, have fun. Good luck man