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Anyone Actually Solved Neck Dive with Strap Button Placement or Tuners?

#81
Ultralites help,but don't solve it enough.
I used to loop a short belt around my leg through the strap.
That worked.
Snapshot_20160808_2.JPG

I don't do that any more.
Now I use a Comfort Strapp.
No dive on either of my basses!

Snapshot_20180621_3.JPG
Snapshot_20181116.JPG
 
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#82
Yesterday I stopped at GC and tried a MIM Mustang P/J. I had been trying them for a while and really liked the sound but the necks were a bit bulky for me. The neck on this one had a slightly slimmer profile and felt more comfortable so it followed me home. Only issues with it are the neck dives and it feels a bit heavy on my shoulder. I added a strap button at the upper left neck screw using a longer screw and now it balances perfectly and feels considerably lighter.
 
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#84
Yes, move the rear button to the top of the body front about halfway along the body. Or maybe even body back but that will cause a slight tendency to tilt the bass forward.
This usually appalls people but it works through the understanding of mechanics, forces, torques and centre of mass.
Also no ugly horn extensions and super easy to do, no cost if you have a drill.

I have a Dean flying-V bass converted to an 8 string, it has 8 bass tuners on the headstock, worse case for neck-dive. Moving the rear button to the top of the body front a few inches from the neck joint balances it but also helps to shift the bass to the right to make it more ergonomic to play.
The button position sounds ridiculous but it works beautifully and is extremely comfortable.

You have to accept you may end up with a small hole or two from experimentations, it's worth it.

Dingo said:
Think I've only mostly come across people suggesting to move the neck strap from horn to neck heel
Click to expand...
That won't help for a PJ Mustang at a normal playing angle because the button will be roughly the same horizontal distance from the centre of mass.
Dingo said:
I kinda figured the friction from a wider strap with rubber or the like would still give 'pull' towards the neck
Click to expand...
Yes, wide straps with grippy surfaces are not a solution, they may somewhat prevent reck dive but then the strap is pulling hard forward on your shoulder, which is bad, and any loose clothing will be pulled forward too.
JGbassman said:
I would certainly do that before adding weight in the form of a counter balance to the bass or strap.
Click to expand...
Adding weight is also a non-solution because that's simply bad for your body. It's completely unnecesary because altered button locations will solve it.
jmlee said:
Actually, the centre of gravity (centre of mass) is exactly the same. What moving the strap button does is the raise the neck somewhat. This reduces the moment arm for the mass of the neck (around the centre of mass), reducing the torque that would cause the bass to rotate under gravitational force.
Click to expand...
Yes. It's mechanics and torque around the centre of mass caused by the forces of the strap ends pulling on the buttons. The torques created by the 2 strap ends need to be equal and opposite to result in zero tendency to rotate.
scuzzy said:
A changed strap pin location on my ovation Magnum solved pretty bad neck dive 100%. Went from very uncomfortable to one of the most comfortable basses I own. Wasn't even a big change, but now it balances beautifully.
Click to expand...
Is that photo of the front and rear buttons or just an alternative front button?
 
#85
Balance at different angles is down to the positions of the strap buttons relative to the centre of mass (COM).

Technical explanation
-------------------------------
Consider the torques around the COM point caused by the forces exerted on the strap buttons by the strap ends.
Because the guitar is not rotating the torques must be equal and opposite.
Torque around the COM point is the distance from COM to strap button multiplied by the component of the strap force perpendicular to the line between COM and strap button.
From considering the torques equal and opposite you can calculate the ratio of the forces, which gives you the imbalance of pull on each end of the strap.

Finding COM
-------------------
You can find the COM by holding the guitar horizontal using your hand on the bottom of the bass, shift your hand until the guitar remains precisely horizontal and stable, your hand will then be directly under the COM.
Do the same with the guitar precisely vertical and you get 2 perpendicular lines crossing the guitar, the COM is at the intersection.

Easy non-technical visual determination of balance
------------------------------------------------------------------------

RGbalance_lines.png


1. Find the centre of mass as described above.
2. With the instrument at the playing angle you want to analyse, draw vertical lines (blue lines) through the buttons (green dots), these are the 2 forces of the strap ends pulling upwards on the buttons.
3. Draw a horizontal line (blue line) through the centre of mass (green dot).
4. The 2 'effective lever arms' are the red and yellow sections of the horizontal line, their relative lengths show the relative sizes of the forces on each end of the strap.

Here the red line is twice the length of the yellow line, so there will be twice as much force (or weight) on the horn end of the strap as on the rear end of the strap (neck heavy).
The shorter the yellow line is relative to the red line, the more force there is on the horn end of the strap relative to the rear end of the strap.
If the guitar was perfectly balanced the red and yellow lines would be equal lengths.

Even simpler
------------------
Considering horizontal positions only: At playing angle, consider the positions of COM and the 2 strap buttons. If the COM is horizontally halfway between the buttons the guitar will be balanced. If the COM is horizontally closer to either button the guitar will be imbalanced.
All this can be visualised easily just by looking at a guitar.

You can see how the imbalance gets rapidly worse at higher playing angles. At 45 degrees the yellow line becomes very short, so almost all the weight of the guitar is on the horn end of the strap.
Even when horizontal it is still somewhat neck heavy.
 
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#88
scuzzy, i see, i was confused thinking the one on the tip of the horn was the original.

So considering COM, there's only 2 things you can do (without adding weight):
Move the horn button further away from the COM, or move the rear button closer to the COM.
The former is difficult, expensive and often ugly if an extension is added.

The added advantage of moving the rear button well forward is that it tends to pull the bass to the right to become more consistent with horizontal positioning when playing sitting.

Almost all mainstream basses are shifted too far to the left when playing standing, the right hand can comfortably move to the right.
This is almost completely for no reason other than commercial fear of designing a bass that isn't a P bass or modernised P-bass design (both are inherently bad, unbalanced and unergonomic designs). A super long top horn well beyond the 12th fret would solve the problem.

With a very few exceptions, the only guitars that are truly balanced (zero rotational torque) are headless.
Some guitars are describes as 'balanced' but are actually just 'less imbalanced such that strap friction overcomes neck dive'.
 
#89
I have, via a combo of light tuners and a high mass bridge on a 4-string. I don’t even think about neck weight now on my gear, but it stands out immediately when I check out some basses in a store. Personally I cannot imagine the wide strap solution being the answer for me, but I haven’t really tried that approach.

Those neck plate strap extenders seem like they might work in some cases... I installed the strap extension hook for an inexpensive Hohner Steinberger clone, more to change where the neck was positioned really... Expect the same effect in terms of neck “reach” if you use an extender on any bass.
 
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#90
mongo2 said:
Yesterday I stopped at GC and tried a MIM Mustang P/J. I had been trying them for a while and really liked the sound but the necks were a bit bulky for me. The neck on this one had a slightly slimmer profile and felt more comfortable so it followed me home. Only issues with it are the neck dives and it feels a bit heavy on my shoulder. I added a strap button at the upper left neck screw using a longer screw and now it balances perfectly and feels considerably lighter.
Click to expand...

Just got one of these also (used). Excellent solution! I was considering moving the bottom button but the sonic blue paint is in perfect condition... Thanks for posting!
 
#92
5StringBlues said:
I also have a short scale Kay with the back button very high:
View attachment 3214100


It doesn't dive on me,but I'm a big guy and wear the bass high so that may be part of it.
Click to expand...



After thinking about this I realized that putting the button here alone wouldn't help at all, so I dug this bass out of the closet for a closer look.



The bass also has a button on the heel of the neck itself. Duh..............
 
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#96
jd56hawk said:
Not necessary when you can easily solve it with this on the bottom of your strap.View attachment 3213778
Click to expand...
Lead, fishing weights, tire weights, washers, etc taped inside the control cavity is how I roll.
high mass bridges too.

some people will tell you lightweight tuners sound worse, usually Fender players. Ive known people who swore their bass had a much worse dead spot once their tuners were lighter. I dont have an opinion on it yet
 
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#97
Jim C said:
Have you guys noticed a change in tone or sustain with light weight tuners?
Things like the fat finger definitely increase the sustain (due to mass) but I have no idea about tone.
OTOH, most electric bass guitars have plenty of sustain for most.
A Mustang is light enough that adding weight may not be a big deal although the gains are not that great.
.02
Click to expand...
There is no “tone” past the nut or bridge.
 
#98
As ixlramp explained it's all about balance and the center of mass.

I have a Carlo Robelli 8 string that had extremely serious neckdive. I raised the rear button and that helped a tiny bit, but the real problem was the upper horn was way too short to create anything close to a balance. (style over utility) Only answer was to install a long tube with the strap button on the end of it to extend the upper horn. Problem fixed. Well. almost fixed. That tube should really be about an inch or inch and a half longer. But the dive is way more livable now.

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