Anyone gig with just a preamp pedal?

[Blues Daddy]

sorry but I didn't read all the replies so my apologies if this has already been posted . . . . does your amp/preamp unit have a -15db pad button for the DI out?

I've occasionaly used a Tech 21 FlyRig direct to FOH. I can adjust the tonal qualities but it doesn't really have as much bottom end as I'd like, so I usually use an Ampeg 7Pro direct to FOH. In both setups there's no bass cabinet on stage so we're all using IEM's (I can hear my bass really well). I've had nothing but compliments from the sound techs since going 'ampless' two years ago.

Good Luck @DWBass . . . . hoping you find a solution !

 

[Blues Daddy]

Oh yeah, one more thought . . . .

I once had a sound tech tell me on the first break that even though he'd already turned me way down at the board the bass was still too loud out FOH and could I turn the volume down on my BG . . . . I sighed and told him to go talk to the heavy-left-handed keyboard player (who I had always struggled/competed with for "bass ranges" before). I guess they worked it out - I did not turn my volume down.

@DWBass , do you have a keys player in the group?

 

[micahwc]

Does a Line 6 Helix LT count as a single preamp?

 

[Mojo34]

My thoughts, as well. Appears they are NOT saturating the channel and attempting to compensate by boosting the slider...not good.

@DWBass : Wanna borrow my Tech 21 Bass Fly Rig? It's sitting over in Buckroe.

Riis

I always do DI to the mixer, usually with a pedalboard based around a Genzler Preamp and a Two Notes Cab Simulator. I had a Tech 21 Acoustic laying around and tried that with my Jazz bass... it sounds awesome for clean tones and has become my go-to machine for everything except concerts.

 

[s0c9]

I was of the impression that gain could be set via trim with the balance of the system silent and using only PFL bargraphs for visual confirmation and adjustment. Once that's done, I can go to my channel sliders, mains sliders, and aux outputs (monitors) to balance things out.

Edit and @DWBass : are you involved with this https://www.talkbass.com/threads/anyone-gig-with-just-a-preamp-pedal.1658885/#post-28639737

Riis

Riis, you are 100% correct ..
Set trim/gain levels for a channel so it doesn't "go into the red".. Then one can EQ, set up sends, effects, etc.
Or one do a "line check" when having a short time between bands (aka Festivals) and set gain for each. At Festivals one generally has to quickly set up monitor mixes too, so it helps to have the gain for each channel set BEFORE doing that.. or when you adjust the guitar input gain, you change what you just setup for guitar in the drummer's (or others) mix! - without touching the mix levels!!! This applies to both analog and digi mixers!
see https://www.talkbass.com/threads/anyone-gig-with-just-a-preamp-pedal.1658885/#post-28639737 for more details on visuals.

What "I" had read was to set all faders at unity, then mix using trim/gain controls.. Yes, I've seen people do that, and been on stage when that happened!
That is what my "OMG NO !!" comment referenced!

 

[s0c9]

Does a Line 6 Helix LT count as a single preamp?

Yes ..

 

[s0c9]

And back to the topic at hand..
I haven't [really] gigged with an amp in years. One of my current bands BL wants me to bring one - even tho he's on IEM's (like the rest of us).
We've talked about him not using one and me leaving mine at home.
I don't go to the PA from the amp,, it's merely a monitor, The last 2 gigs I haven't even powered it up.. and no difference was noted.
So I'll leave it behind for Sat night gig!

That said, I have a pedalboard with GigrigQMX-6 switcher that has Tuner, Cali76 comp, Mesa D800+ (switchable with other pedals I have), TC Chorus and a Tone Boost routed to a Khan VTDI all powered by a Voodoo Labs 4x4 (except VTDI which has own power supply).
All pedals can be switched on/off in the chain.
Cali76 is ALWAYS on, second in chain behind tuner.
When I use the Subway (only a couple of songs), the Cali is set to switch out of the chain.
Whatever I select, it all goes thru the VTDI, then XLR to House.
Lot's of compliments on tone.
Pedalboard is fronted by Senn wireless, and IEM is 64Audio A8's via Mipro909 system.
I only need 2 XLR's to get set up..

 

[Bass4ThePublic]

I gig with an Aguilar Tone Hammer pedal, XLR direct-to-house and 1/4" into a QSC CP12 powered speaker as a wedge-style monitor. It's literally the perfect solution for small to medium sized venues.

Literally my exact rig for this type of stuff. Especially great if you have a compressor you’re able to dial in with the room.

 

[Turnaround]

Sometimes going ampless is fine, sometimes not. I did a gig where backline was to be provided so I only packed my bass and a pre/DI. When I got to the gig there was no backline. No problem, just give me the bass in the monitors. Problem was that the speakers in the monitors were designed to provide vocal support and had no bottom end whatsoever, even with a low frequency boost in the PA. I never encountered that before and I hope I never do again. I hope I sounded better out front than I did on stage!

 

[Thunderthumbs73]

I'm currently gigging at a Casino and the sound folks continue to claim I'm too loud while at the same time don't have enough signal from my amp and can only get me in FOH by moving the fader up to unity. Then claims if they move me up that far it induces clipping. I'm at a loss and confused. So I'm giving up using an amp and will try to use just the preamp pedal and ask for a monitor. Then see what their excuse is.

Last gig I used my GK MB200 into an 8ohm 1x12 cab. My volume was at 9 o'clock. Not loud at all but he kept saying I was too loud. I used a Markbass LMII before that. I brought the MB 200 in an attempt to lower my volume. Same thing. It's pissing me off!

Soundpeople, please feel free to chime in!!

Not a very good soundperson, it seems, regarding gain structure, and who knows what else. I've used a MXR bass preamp (only) on a gig. It was a requirement for the gig, but I also couldn't be blamed for anything about the sound. Use monitor if you can or have to. Also inquire about in-ear monitor options if those are available to you.

 

[DonaldR]

On analogue, you can set all sliders to same value (i.e. -12db) and work with gain to level things out.

No offense but it's not the way to do it. You should solo your channel and adjust gain to be 0db (around it) most of the time when playing the loudest notes.

 

[MonetBass]

I gig with an Aguilar Tone Hammer pedal, XLR direct-to-house and 1/4" into a QSC CP12 powered speaker as a wedge-style monitor. It's literally the perfect solution for small to medium sized venues.

At church, I go into the same pedal but use IEM. It sounds great out front.

 

[RattleSnack]

OMG.. please NO !!
What this does is cause ANY output that has a feed from that channel having it's level changed with EVERY adjustment.. that includes IEM and wedges.
That is absolutely NOT the way to mix on ANY console.. atho' I've seen people do it.
Ever been on stage with someone mixing like that and wonder why your monitor mix constantly changes?

PS: While I removed the comment from the quote.. not all digis have two levels of gain.

Agreed, I never worked this way even with analogue mixers because of the reason you mentioned: I really need consistency. BUT I have seen lots of sound guy work this way and even if you check out YouTube videos from pros (or "pros") - this is their approach. I guess that if it's a one-time job, they don't care. Just a guess.
As for secondary gain (on Mackie it's called "trim"), I don't know how often it's available on digital mixers. In my case, I never need it, primary input gain is enough.

 

[Wasnex]

Agreed, I never worked this way even with analogue mixers because of the reason you mentioned: I really need consistency. BUT I have seen lots of sound guy work this way and even if you check out YouTube videos from pros (or "pros") - this is their approach. I guess that if it's a one-time job, they don't care. Just a guess.
As for secondary gain (on Mackie it's called "trim"), I don't know how often it's available on digital mixers. In my case, I never need it, primary input gain is enough.

I mix on the trims for the sound check. This approaches degrades the signal the S/N ratio a bit but it sets up the mixer with visual references that I find very useful for live mixing. It's not something I would do as a recording engineer.

The basic idea is essentially to balance the mix so the faders are all in the same position. I find I wind up with about four fader levels. From low to high: 1. drums, 2. non-drum instruments, 3. background vocals, 4. lead vocals. These four fader levels also apply to the monitor send levels.

The fader levels serve as nominal references, and during the show I mix primarily on faders. So I run a fader above or below the nominal level as the mix requires, but the fader should stay within a certain range.

However if somebody bumps up their volume during the show I will find it necessary to consistently run a fader out of it's nominal range. When this occurs, I reach for the trim to attenuate their signal back to where it should be for proper balance in the mix. The nominal fader level serves as a reference for this adjustment.

I want to make a point here: Most good audio techs will adjust the trim if something causes a signal to jump grossly out of range, especially if clipping results. However, without some sort of established reference, the trim adjustment is fair less effective at rebalancing the system.

If I simply pull the fader down to rebalance the main mix, the instrument is likely to be too loud in some of the monitor mixes. This sets up classic volume war behavior. One person can't hear so they turn up. This makes it difficult for someone else to hear so they turn up. This goes on and on and the stage volume slowly rises over the course of the performance. By resetting the gain so the out of range instrument balances in the main mix, it also resets the gain structure for the monitor mixes. It's not perfect, but I believe it does help reduce the onset of volume wars.

I also use the approach to preset monitor mixes. In my experience most people want to hear 6-10dB more me. So I adjust each person's monitor sends to provide a balanced mix, then turn the channel sends for their vocal mic and/or instrument up 6-10dB. This usually gets most of the monitor mixes fairly close. Some people are completely happy and others want a few changes. IMHO, often way less changes are required than if I use the textbook approach for gain staging.

This approach works best when you are mixing one band on the same mixer. I think it takes longer to dial in the system so everything balances. So the first sound check on a performance series will take a bit of extra time. As a result, the approach makes less sense if you are mixing a different band every time you use the system.

 

[DWBass]

You're not in the audience area. The FOH person is. That person is the boss - if he or she says you're too loud, you are. Arguing that point will get you nowhere. OK, it will get you "somewhere" - it will get your band fired from the gig. Is that what you want?

The PA/gain structure thing is a secondary issue - if you're too loud from your amp, there is no need to put you in the PA, whatever is happening there is meaningless unless and until you get your rig set up properly. You need to get your volume under control (and still hear yourself). After that problem is fixed, the issues with the PA can be addressed, but first things first.

The first thing you need to do is point your cabinet at your ears, not the back of your knees. This will fix a lot of things. Once your ears are in the beam of your rig, you will hear yourself much better, and will be able to back off the volume. You will probably need a stand that angles the thing, and yes, your amp head will not be on top of your cabinet once it's angled, but this is a necessary step in resolving your issue.

Whenever I've run into the "You're too loud / No, I'm not" scenario, this has been at least part of the problem - usually , it's all of it. It happens with bass, it happens with guitar - we share a common problem, in that our amps are designed to play to the audience, not to us. Nowadays, we have PA's, so our amps should be designed like monitors, but they aren't. If you want to be employable, understanding and fixing the problem yourself will help. A LOT. A band thats "easy to work with" gets re-hired constantly. A band that argues with the FOH person about volumes does not.

Here's a speaker stand I made - it can angle at 35 or 55 degrees by turning the thing around. I used to play a "coffee house" vibe gig, and I needed to hear myself without putting out much volume - there was a harp (the 7 foot tall variety, not a harmonica) that I needed to work with, and me being too loud would destroy the magic of that instrument. I actually put my speaker in front of me, not behind, so it was facing away from the audience, but right at my ears. Worked great - everyone was happy. You need something like this. If you have two cabinets, you need two of these.


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I had my wireless on and he asked me to come off stage to where the mixer was. Had me play. My amp (GK MB200) was at 9 o'clock into a single 8ohm 12. With nothing else going on, I could hear the amp. It was not loud at all. Just present. With the whole band playing, I'm barely heard. I was boosted in the drummers monitor and I could hear myself from there. Not my amp. I also used a Markbass LMIII that has a DI volume control. Same issue. 2 different amps. I don't play loud at all. I know several bassists in the area who slam. Not I! I've also done sound and I know how to gain stage. Never had this issue at any other venue or event. Never been told to turn down. Most times I'm asked to turn up. I was so low I could barely hear myself. In any case, I'm going the preamp route and I have a wired in-ear monitor set that I'm going to use. Like I said, I'm sick of hearing this crap week after week and I don't want to hear it anymore!

 

[DWBass]

Edit and @DWBass : are you involved with this Invalid Link Removed

Riis

Not that I know of. My band is called Seamless.

 

[DWBass]

Do you remember what kind of mixer it was?
Maybe you need to show him where the input trim is.?.?

Also, maybe the problem is the boom-in-da-room.
Don’t turn your bass down, just turn the “bass” way down or off. Go for a hollow tiny super bright sound at your amp.
It might sound like annoying awfulness to you at first, but it might be just whats needed to get the FOH sound right.

It was an Allen & Heath digital mixer but I didn't get the model number. I'm removing my amp from the equation. I'll use my in-ears or have them provide me a monitor. There is no boom. Like I said, he had me come over to the mixer. I played and it just sounded like bass from a distance. Was not loud or boomy at all. He pushed the fader up to unity and I was in FOH and it sounded fine but he was saying it was clipping. This is with 2 different amps. I brought the GK because it was lower wattage. 125w vs 300w at 8ohms. On the amp, bass was at 1 o'clock. Mids were at noon. Treble was at 2 o'clock. My bass' preamp controls were all set to detente/flat.

This is the only place I've ever had an issue in my 40+years of playing live!!

 

[DWBass]

A for them clipping, you didn't mention your interface with their mixing board, XLR? Mic?

XLR out of my amps DI.

 

[DWBass]

As was stated before, this setup is supposed to be an IEM situation. This whole thing can be fixed with IEMS and it doesn't even matter at that point whether there's an amp or not.

Agreed. It was mentioned but has not happened. Even so, there is still the matter of the drummer slamming on his snare and the guitarist diming his amp. They are way louder than I am. Could be the kick drum frequency they are thinking is me. Quite honestly, when they are working on the kick, I don't hear a deep thump at all.

 

[DWBass]

sorry but I didn't read all the replies so my apologies if this has already been posted . . . . does your amp/preamp unit have a -15db pad button for the DI out?

I've occasionaly used a Tech 21 FlyRig direct to FOH. I can adjust the tonal qualities but it doesn't really have as much bottom end as I'd like, so I usually use an Ampeg 7Pro direct to FOH. In both setups there's no bass cabinet on stage so we're all using IEM's (I can hear my bass really well). I've had nothing but compliments from the sound techs since going 'ampless' two years ago.

Good Luck @DWBass . . . . hoping you find a solution !

The GK has no control for the DI. It's level is preset in Pre and is controlled by my volume in Post. My Markbass has a DI level. They never asked for more signal.