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Anyone still prefer Class A/B amps over Class D?

#123
pfschim said:
this is a pretty loaded statement IMO/IME. To say that those who don't agree with your choice of amp are'nt as dedicated to tone is pretty condescending.
Personally, I do love my all tube amp (Fender Studio), and have truly loved me some other tube amps in my day, but they are not superior in any way to my class D hybrid (Demeter VTBP-800) when it comes any of the common non-measurable/unquantifiable tone descriptions we bass players come up with to describe what we hear or feel when we play.
Over 45 years of gigging I have used just about every common brand of tube amp. Great stuff for sure (mostly), but they are not automatically better amps than well designed class D gear.
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That was a lot of you projecting things that weren't said or even implied into my post.
The type of person I described is still the type of person that will choose tube or A/B amps over class D. That's what the question posed in the title was.
Sorry if you read too much into that and got your feelings hurt. You're barking up the wrong tree if you think I'm saying that people who don't agree with me aren't dedicated to tone since I'm more than willing to compromise a little bit for added convenience.
When you gig a lot and you're loading in and out of clubs 4 or 5 times a week, convenience becomes very valuable. A balance of the two is what I strive for.
 
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#125
I love class D. For me, it puts out what I put in, and I can add my Tonehammer if needed. So far, it hasn't been needed with my current and fairly new setup.

My avatar is showing the BIG BXR 115 but that has been replaced by the SVT-210AV.
 
#126
FingerDub said:
I just noticed that when I go to Sweetwater, the most expensive bass amps are still Class A/B and seem to be highly desired here on TB. High end tube amps followed by solid state amps such as an Aguilar DB751, GK 2001RB, Mesa Carbine, TC Blacksmith, SVT 3/4, GK Fusion etc. Only after those, do Class D heads come up.

Does anyone one still prefer the tone or some other aspect of a class A/B amp over a class D head?

Personally, I have 2 amps, one of each. A TC BH250 and a Hartke HA4000 which I recently bought to have a good solid amp at my rehearsal space and for gigs, which allows my TC to be a backup, which I needed. I'm questioning my purchase however. Not because of the tone or the amp it's self, which are both great, but why did I buy a heavier class A/B amp instead of a class D? I got the Hartke for reliability, tone and power, and it delivers in all 3 categories.

But, it is also hard for me to question class D tone, power or reliability. I guess it seems class D is now preferred, but if you still prefer Class A/B/ amps, why?
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I got a backup amp, and got another A/B, because I picked up a used version of my primary, if not exactly recent, A/B head. It works out as 30lbs in a rack bag, which is ok for the short trip from the car. I have more concern about cabinet weight as that comes with bulk and whilst 35lbs is ok, 55lbs is too much.

A/B seem to be available for less. That's the part I like.
 
#127
agedhorse said:
Then perhaps you might not know the whole story behind the technology and its adopters...

I did in fact design some IcePower class D pro audio powered speaker products that were used in the touring industry. Can't discuss this, but absolutely they are out there, and in the thousands.
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Powered speakers, though? I'm talking about flown rigs..
 
#128
agedhorse said:
Because that "white paper" came out before QSC had a class D amp of their own. No need for having it available once they had a reliable competing product.
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Aside from the belittling attitude, you are wrong about the facts. The paper is from 2007, when PL380 was available in QSC's portfolio.

From the document:
"It is possible to make good Class D amps with quite low distortion over most of their operating range, but for a variety of reasons, distortion rises somewhat over the last few dB of the power range. For instance, it is quite common for Class D amps to exhibit some extra switching noise, or dithering, just below clipping, which registers as an increased THD reading. This makes it impossible to cite the usual wideband power rating with incredibly low THD right below clipping: so far, there are no Class D amps with “0.0x” THD at full rated power."

Lots of interesting reading, even if the data is a decade old.
Link:
https://www.qsc.com/resource-files/whitepapers/q_wp_sys_amp_pl3_series.pdf
 
#132
AlexanderB said:
Aside from the belittling attitude, you are wrong about the facts. The paper is from 2007, when PL380 was available in QSC's portfolio.

From the document:
"It is possible to make good Class D amps with quite low distortion over most of their operating range, but for a variety of reasons, distortion rises somewhat over the last few dB of the power range. For instance, it is quite common for Class D amps to exhibit some extra switching noise, or dithering, just below clipping, which registers as an increased THD reading. This makes it impossible to cite the usual wideband power rating with incredibly low THD right below clipping: so far, there are no Class D amps with “0.0x” THD at full rated power."

Lots of interesting reading, even if the data is a decade old.
Link:
https://www.qsc.com/resource-files/whitepapers/q_wp_sys_amp_pl3_series.pdf
Click to expand...

I'm not belittling anything or anyone.

You are correct that it would be MORE accurate that paper was released along with the introduction of their first class D amp product, and I believe that there was an earlier version of this paper as well. During this time, those hanging onto class AB/G/H technology (including QSC) used lower THD as a marketing point for linear products, but once these same companies introduced their own class D amps they had to somehow explain away their previous statements. In reality, THD means nothing at the higher frequencies and this paper served to dispel the very myths that marketed against such products. Another challenge that I remember very well was the customer perception that light weight amps could not possibly reproduce bass frequencies well. This too is water under the proverbial marketing bridge as virtually every single pro tour uses class d amps for subs with zero audio compromise.

I had some PL-380's, great amps, nothing at all wrong with them. In fact, QSC in general has made a lot of very, very good products. Pat Quilter is a very smart, very capable guy who without a doubt has left his mark on this segment of the industry. I serviced a customer in the cinema industry for many years and he had 4 or 5 thousand QSC amps with lots of operating hours and very few problems.

Things have changed a lot in the class D world. Many of the very (amp) companies that marketed against class D (I can remember QSC, Crown, Crest, Lab Gruupen etc) have migrated their higher end product lines entirely to class D (or TD), and the specifications have greatly improved hence these vaery arguments no longer apply. IMO, what they should have done is work more aggressively on reliability earlier on which would have made the transition less painful for all involved.

[I recall that this paper was in response to other companies, maybe it was Crest, that challenged class D specs, and theirs in particular... the details are too long ago to recall exactly, but it may have come out in response to this as well.]
 
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#133
agedhorse said:
At this point, I don't know a single one who prefers the heavier amps... those few "holdouts" have been bypassed for folks who were better equipped to handle the real world and get down to mixing the show rather than remembering the "good 'ol days which" weren't at all as good as they fondly recalled. I was there, I lived those days and no way would I go back. That doesn't mean that I don't look back at some of my lead sled designs with fondness, but also recognize that there are almost no customers left for them.
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Even the holdouts have gone lightweight, too :D I hear you on that. Nobody looks forward to moving 10 giant amp racks with 40 lb amps when they can have 2 or 3 with a million times the wattage.
 
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#135
GroovinOnFunk said:
That was a lot of you projecting things that weren't said or even implied into my post.
The type of person I described is still the type of person that will choose tube or A/B amps over class D. That's what the question posed in the title was.
Sorry if you read too much into that and got your feelings hurt. You're barking up the wrong tree if you think I'm saying that people who don't agree with me aren't dedicated to tone since I'm more than willing to compromise a little bit for added convenience.
When you gig a lot and you're loading in and out of clubs 4 or 5 times a week, convenience becomes very valuable. A balance of the two is what I strive for.
Click to expand...
all good, no hurt feelings here. I felt like your post was saying it was an automatic tone compromise to go lightweight/Class D vs A/B.
I gig and rehearse regularly myself and completely agree with you on the value of lightening the load-in weight. But I also don't think that with well designed class D amps, that any of us are really having to compromise on tone to do that.
 
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#136
MJ_Sotti said:
reading the crap you've posted makes it real hard for me not to say something that's gonna get me suspended or banned.
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Must be hard to be you.

I know I am happy I am not.

Try out some breathing exercises, they help, seriously.

And then try to come to terms with the fact that the world doesn't evolve around you.

I guess at first it might make you feel insignificant, on the other hand it'll take a giant burden off your shoulder and you'll realize that everything you see that you don't happen to like is not meant as a personal insult against you.
 
#137
Mantis Tobaggan said:
I've honestly never played an ampeg CL but it has such a good reputation and so many artists use it that i would love to try one. I love my svt 7 pro and read that it sounds pretty similar. I like to crank the gain and control volume with the master knob. Both of my basses can get pretty grindy through that rig. It has great tone and plenty of power so am happy with my class D but curious about the CL and would guess it probably sounds better. I would be dissapointed if I bought one and couldn't tell the difference.
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I honestly liked my 7 more. It was easier to break up at lower volumes, and the sound was a bit more focused.
 
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#138
agedhorse said:
At this point, I don't know a single one who prefers the heavier amps... those few "holdouts" have been bypassed for folks who were better equipped to handle the real world and get down to mixing the show rather than remembering the "good 'ol days which" weren't at all as good as they fondly recalled. I was there, I lived those days and no way would I go back. That doesn't mean that I don't look back at some of my lead sled designs with fondness, but also recognize that there are almost no customers left for them.
Click to expand...
Interesting. Thx for your input.
 

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