Are jazz musicians musical elitists?

[Jean Rodriguez]

Allow me to elaborate a bit more on this. I've been playing music for 8 years covering a variety of popular genres and going to the Berklee in Puerto Rico seminar for 4 years in a row. During this time, I've noticed that in every program both in school and outside and guitar and bass lesson that I've taken gives an emphasis on jazz music. I've never minded jazz and can play it if needed, but I have never understood the elitism behind it (every jazz musician that I've known treats it like it's the holy grail of music and looks down on all other genres). I've always been a rocker at heart and as such, that is what I will naturally play and is what I excel at the most. Whenever I mention that or I start playing it, I notice the jazz heads of every age giving me snarky looks or the stink eye. They'll then start talking about how bass in rock is boring and how they prefer to transcribe a solo played by whichever jazz player they love or play the same standards over and over again. It's even gone as far that they started to snicker because I said that I was going to play an Ed Sheeran bass chord melody at a competition and they were gonna play solos that they transcribed.

Alright, I'm done ranting and I'll get to the point. Can someone please explain the elitism behind jazz and their musicians or is it just something that the jazz players here in Puerto Rico do? I don't mind the genre and can play it enough to defend myself, but I don't like the emphasis that it's given to it at every music program and most music schools that I've seen.

 

[5544]

Learning the 12 bars blues doesn't take as much time as learning jazz.

 

[Jean Rodriguez]

Learning the 12 bars blues doesn't take as much time as learning jazz.

But it is a hell of a lot more fun than playing the same standards from the real book or transcribing a solo from whichever obscure player existed during the 20th century. Wow, it's really easy to get carried away and start ranting about this

 

[DiabolusInMusic]

But it is a hell of a lot more fun than playing the same standards from the real book or transcribing a solo from whichever obscure player existed during the 20th century. Wow, it's really easy to get carried away and start ranting about this

That's just, like, your opinion, man.

Jazz is full of elitists because it is difficult to learn. Rock is full of elitists who feel their better than jazz players, they didn't need fancy "theory" or how to read. Metal is full of elitist who are better than anybody who doesn't like their specific brand of metal.

I could go on. There are elitists in all genres, not just jazz.

 

[Jean Rodriguez]

That's just, like, your opinion, man.

Jazz is full of elitists because it is difficult to learn. Rock is full of elitists who feel their better than jazz players, they didn't need fancy "theory" or how to read. Metal is full of elitist who are better than anybody who doesn't like their specific brand of metal.

I could go on. There are elitists in all genres, not just jazz.

Yet, I've noticed that they tend to be more open about it (at least, in the musical settings that I have been in). I will admit that I am showing some elitism myself by starting this thread. I like rock better because there is more emotion involved in it (from my point of view at least). Now, I don't go around acting all high and mighty about it (I will admit to throwing one or two comments, but nothing big). I don't know, it's just something that's always puzzled me. One thing that hasn't been answered though is why does every music school and the majority of teachers emphasize it so much and insist on teaching it despiste the musical tastes of the student?

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

Neither engage in snobbery like Classical musicians. I always get a kick out of those fogheads who are so proud of their reading skills, but when you take their chart away from them, they go catatonic. It doesn't matter that they've played the same score 1000 times, they still need their blankie.

 

[Joe Nerve]

Try playing with a classical musician. At least IME, it gets even worse.

 

[T_Bone_TL]

But of course. That's why TalkJazzBass is so exclusive, you can't even find it - you need an engraved invitation, a secret decoder ring, and an inspection of your house, practice space and vehicles to ensure that no P basses are in your possession to even get to website.

 

[Sweet Willie]

I often find that the more musicians I meet, the more any perceived correlations I saw between personality and genre (and skill and genre) fall apart.

 

[Atshen]

I'm a rock elitist, because at least people can dance to rock.

I can appreciate jazz, but to me, it's a more intellectual form of music. In that sense, it's akin to technical death metal. Both make me feel musically inadequate.

 

[buldog5151bass]

There are snobs in any form of art.

As someone who used to play jazz back in school, forgot it for over two decades, and just started playing it again a few years ago (although I still prefer rock and blues), comparing playing rock to jazz is like comparing McDonalds to an aged steak - two entirely different planes. Both can be tasty, but...

As to your Real Book comment - there are at least three real books (not mentioning specialty books like holiday tunes) - over six inches of music - compare that to bands playing Mustang Sally and Sweet Home.

 

[Steven Ayres]

Funny, we've just seen the 'elitist' meme in the bluegrass and classical disciplines, maybe it was inevitable that the spotlight turns to jazzers. I said my piece on that here. But I'd like to address the question of why workshops tend to focus on jazz, speaking as an R&B guy who can get by in the jazz context.

If you're taking a workshop, I'll presume that you want to learn more about music and how to handle your instrument. To me that means deeper understanding of harmony, rhythm and melodic structures, technique and tonal control, yes, but most important is learning how reach inside, find your own music and express it. Jazz is where all those aspects come together.

Jazz has always been about starting with the familiar and actively seeking ways to go deeper and express wider. What you learn in that realm informs and expands your knowledge and facility with any kind of music. You don't have to have a special affinity for the song "All of Me" to appreciate what a master musician can do with it, and that's the real lesson.

Musicality, technical skill and harmonic complexity may have generally fallen out of favor in popular music since the '80s, when nihilistic punkers decided that knowing anything was elitist and the rappers tossed melody out the window in favor of mechanical contrivance and dance moves, but for musicians those choices are self-limiting.

 

[ONYX]

Jazz Elitists, Blues Nazis, Classical Snobs, Rock Prima Donnas, Fusion Psychos,.........they're all out there. I think you're going to run into these types no matter what musical genre you involve yourself with. Don't let it get your blood boiling. The best musicians are the ones who keep an open mind and can adapt themselves to different environments.

 

[rtslinger]

I think "Elitists" can be found in all forms of music, however I lean more towards a classical composer who is able to hear many instruments playing different parts in their head and putting it down on paper, and then hearing it come to life using many musicians is what I consider "Elitist"

 

[ac11367]

Jazz and classical musicians can act as elitist as they want. Nothing beats a songwriter who only needs a few chords to compose a simple song/hook that keeps people humming it all day.

 

[DiMarco]

There's also quite a lot of really cool and down to earth jazz guys. Focus on those.

Music is not a competition, it is a language. Some conversations will be interesting, a lot of them will not.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

There are snobs in any form of art.

As someone who used to play jazz back in school, forgot it for over two decades, and just started playing it again a few years ago (although I still prefer rock and blues), comparing playing rock to jazz is like comparing McDonalds to an aged steak - two entirely different planes. Both can be tasty, but...

As to your Real Book comment - there are at least three real books (not mentioning specialty books like holiday tunes) - over six inches of music - compare that to bands playing Mustang Sally and Sweet Home.

Hey, man. we play Freebird, too.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

Funny, we've just seen the 'elitist' meme in the bluegrass and classical disciplines, maybe it was inevitable that the spotlight turns to jazzers. I said my piece on that here. But I'd like to address the question of why workshops tend to focus on jazz, speaking as an R&B guy who can get by in the jazz context.

If you're taking a workshop, I'll presume that you want to learn more about music and how to handle your instrument. To me that means deeper understanding of harmony, rhythm and melodic structures, technique and tonal control, yes, but most important is learning how reach inside, find your own music and express it. Jazz is where all those aspects come together.

Jazz has always been about starting with the familiar and actively seeking ways to go deeper and express wider. What you learn in that realm informs and expands your knowledge and facility with any kind of music. You don't have to have a special affinity for the song "All of Me" to appreciate what a master musician can do with it, and that's the real lesson.

Musicality, technical skill and harmonic complexity may have generally fallen out of favor in popular music since the '80s, when nihilistic punkers decided that knowing anything was elitist and the rappers tossed melody out the window in favor of mechanical contrivance and dance moves, but for musicians those choices are self-limiting.

The roots of jazz are a bit different. It actually started around New Orleans. Marshall music was popular then. John Phillip Souza was the rock star. Uneducated black musicians using second hand instruments emulated it and added their own cultural feel. Thus came what is known as Dixieland jazz. It expanded from there.

 

[Nev375]

It's human nature to form little groups and then turn to all the outsiders of the group and look down their noses at them.

It goes all the way back to the tribes of cavemen and is the foundation of politics, religion, racism, wars and genocides througout history.

My hope is some day people will start teaching their children to appreciate the differences in others and value it more than the comfort of being with others who look and act the same as themselves. Maybe then we can evolve into something better.

 

[Shortie]

Learning the 12 bars blues doesn't take as much time as learning jazz.

Playing a 12 bar blues the right way, with the skills and feel of the masters takes just as much time as learning jazz, if not more. You're just learning different things. Do you really think that people like BB King or Sonny Boy Williamson or Paul Butterfield, or to mention bass players, Willie Dixon - or on the Fender someone like Tommy Shannon - just took a week to learn the twelve bar form and then started playing the way they did? Why do more bars and more changes make some music better or more important?

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.”
― Invalid Link Removed
“Our life is frittered away by detail. Simplify, simplify.”
― Invalid Link Removed, Invalid Link Removed
“One day I will find the right words, and they will be simple.”
― Invalid Link Removed, The Dharma Bums
“If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.”
― Albert Einstein
“Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated.”
― Confucius
“There is no greatness where there is not simplicity, goodness, and truth.”
― Invalid Link Removed, War and Peace
“The greatest ideas are the simplest.”
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“It is not a daily increase, but a daily decrease. Hack away at the inessentials.”
― Bruce Lee

“One should use common words to say uncommon things”
― Invalid Link Removed

If you don't get that, then you don't understand blues and/or you're a "jazz snob".