Are jazz musicians musical elitists?

[Groove Doctor]

Jazz musicians can be ugly to their own.

Why "Vibing" is Bad for Jazz - Learn Jazz Standards

Great article!!

"Vibing is usually passive aggressive and is basically designed to poke fun at another musician or otherwise damage their reputation. Vibing brings out the worst in human nature."

" 'Vibing' is one part of the jazz tradition that pretty much needs to go away. We can push each other to be better in other ways and still have a caring, open attitude toward our fellow musicians."

 

[Matthew Fisher]

I started a new thread on "Jazz for rockers" in case anybody wants to chime in there. I didn't want to hijack this thread, which is about the separate question of elitism. But maybe some suggested listening would help.

Jazz for rockers?

 

[Jim Carr]

I am aware of the meaning of the word and this was my opinion of a person whose music was mostly written for the ears of Royalty or aristocrats of that time period. I am only assuming if I had been hired to compose a piece of music for these affluent individuals, that I would give others who weren't chosen for such and elite task, the nose in the air as I walked by.

Yeah I guess this guy didn't look down on others and this is a direct quote

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I am not defending Beethoiven, as he need needs no defense from anyone. However, you have completely misunderstood this "quote."

At a social occasion, Beethoven (LVB) had been treated like a servant by a patron Prince, some of the Prince's fellow aristocrats, and some high-ranking military guests. The Prince ordered LVB to perform or be held under arrest. He actually just walked out, after supposedly writing the quote as a note (which is of dubious authenticity). In it, LVB is pointing out that the elite aristocracy were born to what they have—but that his, Beethoven's, accomplishments were unique and the result of his brilliance and effort, not inborn privilege.

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[Jim Carr]

I am aware of the meaning of the word [elitist] and this was my opinion of a person [Beethoven] whose music was mostly written for the ears of royalty or aristocrats of that time period...

Actually, the rich Viennese aristocrats—the actual elite of Beethoven's day—lined-up to commission or hear Beethoven more out of an interest in appearing important, fashionable, and sophisticated, though most of them were amateur chamber musicians, and a handful honestly loved Beethoven and supported him financially from time to time. Never-the-less, he was basically a free-lancer and considered to be an ill-mannered radical, not the plaything of princes.

Beethoven's Vienna audience was pretty large for the public performances of his symphonies, concerti, opera, choral and chamber concerts, etc. He lived off of publication, commissions, public and private concerts, lessons, and small allowances from the rich elite.

Don't forget that if you wanted music in those days, you had to either make it yourself or hire a professional.

 

[blue4]

I have to bring up the elephant in the room here. Maybe even a white elephant too? Taboo subject. So sorry. Someone has to be the straight man. First off, I am an egghead.

My experience is this: Most elitism and snobbery in - actually - all kinds of music, but moreso like jazz and derived afro-american music, comes from white people. I e not from the origin country or population. The "second generation" that copied (read: stole) from somebody else. I e somebody elses music. I've encountered much less snobbery (if any) from any hispanic/latino who plays latin music, or even less elitism from Jamaicans regarding reggae. Or afro-american people at all.

In Scandinavian countries the elitism and snobbery comes mostly from those in charge, the established teaching forms, and Europeans and Kaukasians who thinks you can break down everything into logic and rudimental music theory. Getting over-intellectual about it. Over analysing. And the more you can do that, the more snobbery, and elitism turns up in the end. Beats me.

- - - - - -

My biggest gripe is that those elitist/snobbery things comes to a head, when those musicians CLAIMS that if they've learned to play jazz (or classical) they can easily play everything else like it would be kids stuff. When listening to them, it's almost always not the case at all. In fact very far from it.

I love when I hear such obscure guitarists like Martin Barre of Jethro Tull confess in an interview "Blues and rock I'll play by heart, it's more the core, the jazz and classical stuff is actually all just a pretend, like a good actor doing a convincing portrait of someone else...but it's not really me". I like such confessions, by a professional musician. BTW I've never heard any cover band who can just as easily shift from Giant Steps to a singer/songwriter tune, to old jazz, country polka, and pull off a Slipknot tune JUST AS CONVINCINGLY. You'll hear - after all - their shortcomings and where it's really at. It shows.

So verdict: All elitism/snobbery is ... kind of ... a pretend, when push comes to shove. We all love to put on a facade. The color green is more important and neutrally better than red. Or magenta. It's an advanced color, cultivated. I think it's more of just because it's an acquired taste, that it has become elitist and more valuable.

The funny thing is, way back when jazz started it was - considered - the lowest of lowest things musically. "Don't bring that anticipated notes to Europe please, stop the disease spreading like a plauge!" They were even street demonstrations in the 50's with picketing and signs that said "Respect the Jazz!" And you guessed it right, it was left wing people. You have absolutely no idea what the encyclopedias in school taught us about jazz. I find no other musical style that has taken such a turn. From as late as 1960, in the Swedish Academy (those who gives out Nobel Prize each year) dictionary they explain if you look up the word saxophone: "A horn instrument most played by negroes at circuses". And no more. I refrain to recall and quote here what is stated about banjos. Nevertheless, if it has turned elitist and snobbish, it is a remarkable class travel it has made!

What changed their minds, you think?

Yes I know, going out on a limb here, but so be it. Let the flame start (accompanied perhaps by a Rammstein song, or anything else appropriate).

No I think the elephant in the room is the fact that you can make a unprovable, untrue generalization about white people based solely on race and nobody will touch it with a ten foot pole over 9 pages.

 

[JMacBass65]

Yes

 

[Honch]

That vibing thing is a good read, but it's not really what this thread is at. "Vibing" can come in any flavor, in any kinds of music. Not only jazz. It's general bigottery. But as the article say itself, it's those Miles Davis that are looked up to, and when they read and see him in concert, no wonder the younger guys tries to follow suit. Keith Jarrett too. I've done "vibing" (whatever that is) myself, but usuallay against someone else who started to "vibe" first. I e it's a mote and beam thing again. I'll gladly pick on anyone that draws "first blood" so to speak. If it don't start, I won't ever start it.

And regarding the other thread with gross behaviour by other musicians on stage, yes I'll vibe. And are not ashamed for it, because I'll tried the diplomatic way and it didn't help. Recently deceased Prince did "vibe" his musicians big time. Remember when he played Roskilde a couple of years back...the reviewer stood at the side of the stage and told us the story in his column. All of a sudden, in the middle of a tune, it stopped, and the stage turned dark. While audience barely could see what happened, Prince danced his way to the side of the stage, smelling of jasmine, and immedieately danced towards the horn section and started to "vibe" the saxophone player, not yelling, and then dancing his way up to the mic, and ordered lights on again, said "sorry" and then countinued, while looking ever so happy and smiling.

The younger the musicians the less I'll vibe. The more seasoned, experienced and - on top of that - bragging and strutting with it, the more I'll do it up front.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

There are many subsets of jazz snobbery. Some cats live in that Trad & Swing era. Some are Bebop fanatics, while others are only into Straight-Ahead, Latin, Modern, or whatever else we label as Jazz.

Most of my very best friends are jazzers of all types who are funny, humble, and insanely gifted musically.

The snobbery usually rears its ugly head when some goof ball who talks too much asks to sit in and it becomes immediately clear he hasn't done his homework.

This happens to all of us - on both sides of the jam session.

Big +1 on this. For reasons I won't go into here, I'm starting to get back into BG playing a bit. Mostly, I just want to get better and learn something. Last night I was playing along with some old classic rock records of my youth on a Fender Jazz through some nice headphones. It wasn't easy! The chord progressions were simple, but there's a tightness to the groove in that music that involves a lot of attention on the end of each note rather than just letting each note flow into the next in a big legato line. Playing some of these bass lines felt more like being in an orchestra and reading a very detailed part rife with all sorts of dynamic and articulation info, only doing it by ear. Every time iI pick up a BG these days, my respect for players who do it well grows by leaps and bounds. My most recent graduate student is an excellent electric player, and watching/listening to him has inspired me to branch out and actually explore that side of things again.

One of my best friends is a great drummer who started his career as a teenager in Joe Henderson's touring band, and who also toured with Getz, Gary Burton, and a lot of other jazz legends. Later he toured with blues and rock acts before settling on a second career outside of music (though he still plays all the time). He makes a big distinction between "real electric players" and "upright players holding an electric bass". I don't take an electric bass to gigs these days because I don't want to sound like the latter. But I would love to overcome that and put in the time to become a halfway decent doubler. It really is its own skill set, and anybody who vibes a great electric player outside of jazz for not being a "real bassist" is either very ignorant of their skill set, very immature, very insecure, or some combination of the three. The truth, IMO, is that there is something to be learned from great players in all genres.

 

[NoiseNinja]

I think that would be a generalization.

If we are talking classic jazz I do believe you have a point though.

They have a point too, though there is no reason to be smug about it, most jazz is more complicated than classic 4/4 rock.

To be perfectly honest I find most classic rock boring too, and most classic jazz for that matter too, but not something I hold against people who happen to like and play it.

My guess is though that people who play free jazz are more open minded.

Take a look at these people, I would be surprised if some of them weren't into at least some of the stuff noise musicians and noise rockers make, even if guys like Peter Brötzmann were one of the first ones to incorporate pure noise into music successfully himself:

 

[bluesblaster]

are jazz musicians musical elitists ? no, there just better than you

 

[Goofball Jones]

Thread resurrection. I've found that, in my experience, that jazz players are less welcoming to newcomers than the other genres. I've sat in on many a jam session when playing blues or rock or just messing around and almost always everyone was there to have a good time and they were very welcoming and even helped out people new to playing with others.

I only did one with jazz, where it seemed everything was more of a test than anything else...to see if you knew about how someone started a song off in the "usual key" on some specific record...instead of just saying the fricken key. If you dared to ask, people would do the "pfft...if you don't know, why are you here" type of thing. I'm talking real jerks. Granted, my sample data is only from one of these, but it really put me off of ever trying it again.

 

[matthewbrown]

Thread resurrection. I've found that, in my experience, that jazz players are less welcoming to newcomers than the other genres. I've sat in on many a jam session when playing blues or rock or just messing around and almost always everyone was there to have a good time and they were very welcoming and even helped out people new to playing with others.

I only did one with jazz, where it seemed everything was more of a test than anything else...to see if you knew about how someone started a song off in the "usual key" on some specific record...instead of just saying the fricken key. If you dared to ask, people would do the "pfft...if you don't know, why are you here" type of thing. I'm talking real jerks. Granted, my sample data is only from one of these, but it really put me off of ever trying it again.

You'll find it varies from place to place. In areas where there are NOT many jazz musicians, you can find jams that are much more inclusive, and the pros are there to try to make everyone who sits in sound good. Often, the ones who sit in are their music students. I've only heard about the type of jam you describe here, never attended one. But I've certainly felt a chill when I sat in at sessions and didn't really cut it. Sometimes it comes down to competence in your genre. And sometimes it really is someone being a jerk.

 

[Altitude]

Jazz embodies the entire tonal language of Western music, and has a 100+ year history of recorded performance and notated music. Jazz combines composition, instrumental ensembles of all kinds, instrumental and vocal soloists, sophisticated notation, and improvisation at a high level of virtuosity. Jazz revolutionized Western music by giving voice to the musical brilliance of African Americans—that had been withheld from the western world for over 300 years. Jazz has changed the world forever.

On occasion, Jazz has influenced virtually all other music genres and styles, and has borrowed from all styles and genres. During the 30s, 40s, and 50s, it also dominated music heard on the radio, at the movies, and later on TV—and not just in North American. It has also found a home in the University music department. It has a large instructional literature and teaching tradition embedded in notation.

As much as I love rock, blues, reggae, gospel, hip-hop, gogo, celtic penny whistle, soca, high life, blue grass, motown, North Indian Raga, Salsa, Pibroch etc., Jazz has a bigger repertoire than most of these styles, a longer history than many, and a hugely sophisticated harmonic and rhythmic language that contains all the other genres, at least to a large extent. It is the musical colossus of the 20th Century.

IMHO.

Yes. Beyond its stylistic appeal, jazz embodies the mathematics that underlies all music. It took the theoretical study of the relationship of notes and made it into an art form. Of course, for thousands of years prior to jazz, music had been written and performed using the same 12 notes, but not until jazz did we establish a way to use those notes as communication in quite the same way it uses them.

Any human being will understand music more completely if they study jazz than if they will not. Further, those who approach mastery of music through jazz are the most completely skilled musicians of all.

 

[mongo2]

The whole point behind jazz music is interaction, listening, having enough mastery of your ear and instrument that you can create music on the spot that could go anywhere.

To me those skills are useful for any style of music.

I had the fortunate misfortune to play for a couple of decades with a singer guitarist who couldn't maintain steady time and frequently just changed things without giving a cue. The reason I say fortunate misfortune is that, inspite of his inconsistencies, I had to keep up and that's when I really developed my listening skills.