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Are jazz musicians musical elitists?

...sure. :rollno:

Edit: who are the elitists we're talking about again?
I promise you this happened.
...sure. :rollno:

Edit: who are the elitists we're talking about again?
Did I step on your toes?
I was classically trained as well. I has been a valuable asset, but I assure you there are some who cannot play anything without a chart nor can they improvise.
 
Secretly, I am an elitist. I find that jazz takes more brain power to understand and play well than anything else. But you don't have to take my word for it.

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I actually think you are right. However, I see it like this: Though it takes more brain power to read a physics textbook than a good Tom Clancy novel, I find that the novel is a lot more enjoyable. I have to acquire the knowledge of the technology in his books to enjoy them even more, which is where the physics textbook may come in, but if I'm reading for fun, it's gonna be Clancy over the textbook.
 
It's human nature to form little groups and then turn to all the outsiders of the group and look down their noses at them.

It goes all the way back to the tribes of cavemen and is the foundation of politics, religion, racism, wars and genocides througout history.

My hope is some day people will start teaching their children to appreciate the differences in others and value it more than the comfort of being with others who look and act the same as themselves. Maybe then we can evolve into something better.
A laudable goal, but impractical. It is basic survival instinct. All creatures, not just humans do it. The more different one is from yourself, the less you are inclined to trust him. We humans have come a long way toward that goal, but we are nowhere near it nor will we ever be. That you have locks on your house is a sign of that.
 
I actually think you are right. However, I see it like this: Though it takes more brain power to read a physics textbook than a good Tom Clancy novel, I find that the novel is a lot more enjoyable. I have to acquire the knowledge of the technology in his books to enjoy them even more, which is where the physics textbook may come in, but if I'm reading for fun, it's gonna be Clancy over the textbook.
In that sense, jazz is a one-day thriller read. :)
 
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A laudable goal, but impractical. It is basic survival instinct. All creatures, not just humans do it. The more different one is from yourself, the less you are inclined to trust him. We humans have come a long way toward that goal, but we are nowhere near it nor will we ever be. That you have locks on your house is a sign of that.
i.e. Times change. People don't.
 
Really depends.

I agree. Truth be told IME some people are arrogant, "elitist" ego maniacs, and most people aren't. I know an equal amount of musicians from all genres of music who think they're one up on everyone else. I just happen to be working with one particular classical dude right now who is beginning to really grate on my nerves. I know a lot of jazz players who are awesome to hang with. And very humble considering their talent.
 
In that sense, jazz is a one-day thriller read. :)
I act like I don't like Jazz, but the truth is, some of my most enjoyable live listening experiences have been regarding Jazz.

To wit: After the 40th anniversary of Woodstock, I found out that Michael Shrieve was playing the white rabbit in Freemont (suburb of Seattle) every monday night. He was the drummer for Santana at woodstock, and his solo has always been the high point of the movie for me. Well, that and the naked chicks in the water - but I outgrew that part.

The man has been improving his whole life. I went there on multiple occasions to listen to his group, Spellbound. It was absolutely amazing. The bass player even had a roland synth pickup and he created some wildly entertaining riffs and sounds. And yeah, it was jazz.
 
Though it takes more brain power to read a physics textbook than a good Tom Clancy novel, I find that the novel is a lot more enjoyable.

Jazz isn't my favorite genre to play, but I have to resist the idea expressed here, that learning and playing jazz is an academic exercise. Jazz in its many flavors was the preeminent popular music of the US, Canada and most of Europe from the end of the first world war into the early 1960s, longer if you count its strong influence during the pop explosion of the '60s and '70s, which was largely furnished by jazz-trained and inspired studio musicians. The original poster uses as his avatar an image of Sir Paul, who was an educated jazz fan even as a teenager and has expressed that through his music ever since. Jazz was and remains popular because, like a good meal, it's both flavorful and nutritious. When my wife studies the details to create a fabulous dinner, it's not a physics textbook, it's a better life for me.
 
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Jazz has been referred to as "America's classical music". Unlike classical music where compositions are recited, improvisation is a required skill. Many theory classes include or focus on jazz because it contains complex rhythms, syncopation, modes, and chords with names that take up an entire paragraph. In short, advanced information for teaching aspiring musicians. Snobs appear in many different situations in all walks of life. Perhaps it's because a mastery of difficult skills has more bragging rights than mastering simple ones. At any rate, don't judge the music by those performing it (unless they suck).
 
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Gene Simmons once said, and I paraphrase, "Rock musicians will never get respect by hardcore jazz musicians, so there's no point in even trying." Now I've found that as more and more young jazzers get influenced by rock and roll, this is loosening up a bit, but there's no doubt that jazz musicians see themselves as superior on the whole. But I'll tell you, I've heard some really good jazz musicians sound really awful playing an AC/DC song.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't learn how to play some jazz. I did and I'm very grateful for the education because it really is the best type of music to learn theory because how often it uses advanced concepts. Don't let jazzers turn you off to that aspect of it.
 
Elitists exist in every genre.

'Round these parts there are few bluegrass/old timey snobs, unfortunately. It's sad, because outside of newer alt-country stuff, real bluegrass and old-timey traditions are dying. Not a lot of kids learning the ways, as it were. There is always some NPR bit about groups outreaching to younger generations to take up the craft to keep it alive. Well, if younger and newer players aren't allowed in the circles until they 'earn' their wings, it could limit things a bit, no?

There's that. But for me the cost and toil of buying, maintaining, and transporting a double bass is beyond me. And I couldn't flatpick guitar to bluegrass to save my life. So, no oldtimey for me, I'm afraid. Oh well.

Exactly.

We do Blues/Jazz/Standards/Swing/Ragtime and Olde Timey Country/Bluegrass stuff (playing a country/bluegrass set at Albert Hall in the Pine Barrens this weekend.) I haven't bothered with upright for years. This weekend I'll be using my late 50's Kay Truetone hollowbody. It has a great tone for all that kind of stuff. I've also used my Hofner Ignition Club, Silvertone dolphin nose, Kala Ubass, Fender Mustang, Ibanez Mikro, and others for that.
 
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I have to bring up the elephant in the room here. Maybe even a white elephant too? :cautious: Taboo subject. So sorry. Someone has to be the straight man. First off, I am an egghead.

My experience is this: Most elitism and snobbery in - actually - all kinds of music, but moreso like jazz and derived afro-american music, comes from white people. I e not from the origin country or population. The "second generation" that copied (read: stole) from somebody else. I e somebody elses music. I've encountered much less snobbery (if any) from any hispanic/latino who plays latin music, or even less elitism from Jamaicans regarding reggae. Or afro-american people at all.

In Scandinavian countries the elitism and snobbery comes mostly from those in charge, the established teaching forms, and Europeans and Kaukasians who thinks you can break down everything into logic and rudimental music theory. Getting over-intellectual about it. Over analysing. And the more you can do that, the more snobbery, and elitism turns up in the end. Beats me.

- - - - - -

My biggest gripe is that those elitist/snobbery things comes to a head, when those musicians CLAIMS that if they've learned to play jazz (or classical) they can easily play everything else like it would be kids stuff. When listening to them, it's almost always not the case at all. In fact very far from it.

I love when I hear such obscure guitarists like Martin Barre of Jethro Tull confess in an interview "Blues and rock I'll play by heart, it's more the core, the jazz and classical stuff is actually all just a pretend, like a good actor doing a convincing portrait of someone else...but it's not really me". I like such confessions, by a professional musician. BTW I've never heard any cover band who can just as easily shift from Giant Steps to a singer/songwriter tune, to old jazz, country polka, and pull off a Slipknot tune JUST AS CONVINCINGLY. You'll hear - after all - their shortcomings and where it's really at. It shows.

So verdict: All elitism/snobbery is ... kind of ... a pretend, when push comes to shove. We all love to put on a facade. The color green is more important and neutrally better than red. Or magenta. It's an advanced color, cultivated. I think it's more of just because it's an acquired taste, that it has become elitist and more valuable.

The funny thing is, way back when jazz started it was - considered - the lowest of lowest things musically. "Don't bring that anticipated notes to Europe please, stop the disease spreading like a plauge!" They were even street demonstrations in the 50's with picketing and signs that said "Respect the Jazz!" And you guessed it right, it was left wing people. You have absolutely no idea what the encyclopedias in school taught us about jazz. I find no other musical style that has taken such a turn. From as late as 1960, in the Swedish Academy (those who gives out Nobel Prize each year) dictionary they explain if you look up the word saxophone: "A horn instrument most played by negroes at circuses". And no more. I refrain to recall and quote here what is stated about banjos. Nevertheless, if it has turned elitist and snobbish, it is a remarkable class travel it has made! :thumbsup:

What changed their minds, you think? ;)

Yes I know, going out on a limb here, but so be it. Let the flame start (accompanied perhaps by a Rammstein song, or anything else appropriate).
 
Another factor is your age. I think you'll find it very common that young musicians really enjoy looking down on things: every Berklee "party" I ever went to as a student was a complete sausage-fest of dudes who hadn't done anything at all running down professional musicians in a wide variety of styles. As you get older, I think you'll find that the people who stay in music tend to be the noes who grow out of their childish prejudice and learn to appreciate the wiser palette of music. The most accomplished jazz players I know can really appreciate the power of doing something simple if the song calls for taht.