sorry, when discussing all kinds of snobbery/elitism it's all about politics, and pretty much not anything else. Someone has preferential right of interpretation, of what is politics/elitism or not. I don't want to get anyone in any direction. But if it is so in my area, and has been so, I can't help bringing in what it's like at my place. We all have different experiences. It's when the powers that be who grows up and becomes established and running the schools, running the country finds out that they actually LOVED jazz when they were young, they will bring some kind of gravitas to it. It wasn't good back then but all of a sudden it becomes higher class, and even esoteric sometimes.
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Are jazz musicians musical elitists?
- Thread starter Jean Rodriguez
- Start date
sorry, when discussing all kinds of snobbery/elitism it's all about politics, and pretty much not anything else. Someone has preferential right of interpretation, of what is politics/elitism or not. I don't want to get anyone in any direction. But if it is so in my area, and has been so, I can't help bringing in what it's like at my place. We all have different experiences. It's when the powers that be who grows up and becomes established and running the schools, running the country finds out that they actually LOVED jazz when they were young, they will bring some kind of gravitas to it. It wasn't good back then but all of a sudden it becomes higher class, and even esoteric sometimes.
This is not necessarily a problem of elitism. Did the keyboardist turn his/her nose up at you? Or were they just lost because they had never attempted to play by chords before? Learning to comp with chords is a unique skill for many pianists, since classical training generally involves using sheet music. Many have just never tried it. I'm going through this issue with our keyboardist. She's nervous about learning to play by chords, but wants to try, and is making a serious go at it. If I were to hold her lack of experience against her I might be missing out a fun and rewarding opportunity to make music with a talented and good friend. I would be the elitist in that scenario. Anyways, I really do think she will do fine.
What if "ace of spades" was a jazz tune first? It came out like that first. And then Motorhead did a metal cover of it...or hard rock cover... as it were. It could very well be just like that from the start on.
Ok, here's another one, what about this then:
Ok, here's another one, what about this then:
My point was that classically trained musicians look down on those who play "lesser" forms of music. The consider themselves the keepers of all musical knowledge. This is just an example of how some have shortcomings the dispel the myth that they are in every way superior. I know, because my dad was classically trained. He studied to be a symphony conductor and became a high school band director. Unlike some, he was accomplished in other genres, but being around his friends, I saw it on a daily basis growing up.
I don't know if jazz musicians (and I'm one) are elite when it comes to musical value, or more specifically "art" value in today's society. But, what I do know, is that from a practical standpoint, jazz musicians are now trained and accustomed to playing with a wide variety of musicians in many different genres. Although I'm a jazzer, I've played in symphony orchestras, pit bands, blues bands, rock bands, etc. and have done well. I think that because there are so few true jazz gigs we've learned to become versatile and adaptable. Does that translate to a self-viewing elitism by some jazz players? Probably.
This is it. There are snobs everywhere. There's also plenty of jazz musicians who are very down to earth and still like "normal" music.
What was the proverb: "Jazz musician is one playing thousand chords to three people. Rock musician plays three chords to thousands of people".
Fat Steve
The poodle bites, the poodle chews it.
Jazz is just hard to do all the way around. It's difficult to play, it's difficult to get into the scene, and above all it's difficult to listen to. As I get older, I've begun to shed the notion that music that doesn't challenge the listener is somehow inferior to music that does. Just because something is difficult or challenging doesn't mean that it's good, and I think that a lot of the perceived elitism within the jazz community stems from that particular ethos.
It's the same elitist, ignorant and arrogant folks that have the balls to call other types of music the "lowest common denominator" that make me lose interest in the genre.
It's the same elitist, ignorant and arrogant folks that have the balls to call other types of music the "lowest common denominator" that make me lose interest in the genre.
He definitely was not, but wanted to be.You sure they weren't a "blues" or "rock" player?
For real? Something doesn't add up there. A classically trained musician who couldn't reproduce something taught on day 1 of any intro to harmony class?
for real. Not the first one I've met who couldn't play it if it wasn't on paper.
Even my mother who taught piano and voice struggled with it.
Let me clarify my definition of classically trained. I don't mean a university degree in music, rather a person who took lessons from a private instructor for years. Many of these instructors don't go into theory very much.
I've seen musical snobs of all political bents and monetary classes.
Fair point, but I think it is a misrepresentation to refer to anyone who took lessons from a private instructor (ie - anyone) as "classically trained."
I hear ya. It's too easy for humans to turn their noses up at what they fail to understand or appreciate, or rather what they feel intimidated by.
I often wonder that maybe there really are fundamental differences in how people "understand", hear, feel music. I can't help but wonder if a lot of elitism occurs because these camps differ in how they approach music, and just have a difficult time understanding each other.
Some come at it from a cerebral and methodical way, where theory and structure guide their playing or composing (classical oriented approach). While others (like me) feel and hear our ways through, and theory just becomes a way to organize or communicate what's going on in our head and hands. I've always struggled with charts and sheets - I can't hear in my head what's on the paper. But hum a few bars, and I will get the gist of it. That's harder for some than others IME. Most of us are probably somewhere in between on that spectrum, I suppose.
I'm a rock elitist, because at least people can dance to rock.
I can appreciate jazz, but to me, it's a more intellectual form of music. In that sense, it's akin to technical death metal. Both make me feel musically inadequate.
If you think you can't dance to jazz, you need your groove sensors checked.
Example 1: Snarky Puppy. Bassist Michael League composes and arranges all their stuff. He also shames anyone who thinks that a P-bass doesn't belong in jazz music.
Example 2: Jukka Eskola. I mean, seriously, just try not to tap your foot to this poopie.
Example 3: Herbie Hancock. Needs no elaboration.
Example 4: Robert Glasper Experiment. Fluid, sexy blends of jazz and r&b, combines virtuosic musicianship with head boppin grooves.
Also I think that there are indeed many elitists in every genre, but all those people should be ignored because they're playing with their heads stuck inside a box of whatever tropes in music they've grown used to. It takes some work, but if you actively seek it out there is fantastic musicianship and songwriting to be found in every genre (yes, even country) and listening to that attentively will put you, as a musician, leagues ahead of the jazz fanatic who has transcribed all of Jaco's solos or the classical dude who plays Bartok all day or the metalhead who shreds nothing but (insert iconic metal bassist here)'s riffs.
To address the question of why teachers shove jazz down your throat, I think that's because historically speaking it's one of only a few genres of music that have been deeply analyzed in an academic/music theoretical fashion, and so naturally it has spawned the most methods of teaching music and applying music theory. Not to say that other genres couldn't be approached in the same way and that you couldn't learn just as much from them, but teachers who decide to go with that approach might, in some senses, have to reinvent the wheel. However, I will defend the decision to teach jazz because I feel that it can fluidly incorporate aspects of other styles (again, Snarky Puppy and Robert Glasper are really really great examples of this), but I digress.
Main point, elitists of all kinds suck. Don't listen to them, and furthermore, don't let their vitriol destroy your taste for their chosen genre of music, lest you find yourself developing the same kind of musical tunnel vision that turned them into elitists in the first place.
