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Are jazz musicians musical elitists?

#181
Jean Rodriguez said:
Allow me to elaborate a bit more on this. I've been playing music for 8 years covering a variety of popular genres and going to the Berklee in Puerto Rico seminar for 4 years in a row. During this time, I've noticed that in every program both in school and outside and guitar and bass lesson that I've taken gives an emphasis on jazz music. I've never minded jazz and can play it if needed, but I have never understood the elitism behind it (every jazz musician that I've known treats it like it's the holy grail of music and looks down on all other genres). I've always been a rocker at heart and as such, that is what I will naturally play and is what I excel at the most. Whenever I mention that or I start playing it, I notice the jazz heads of every age giving me snarky looks or the stink eye. They'll then start talking about how bass in rock is boring and how they prefer to transcribe a solo played by whichever jazz player they love or play the same standards over and over again. It's even gone as far that they started to snicker because I said that I was going to play an Ed Sheeran bass chord melody at a competition and they were gonna play solos that they transcribed.

Alright, I'm done ranting and I'll get to the point. Can someone please explain the elitism behind jazz and their musicians or is it just something that the jazz players here in Puerto Rico do? I don't mind the genre and can play it enough to defend myself, but I don't like the emphasis that it's given to it at every music program and most music schools that I've seen.
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I think a lot of that comes from all the time, study, and practice they've put in to really understand all of the musical complexities that go into Jazz and to be able to trade improvs with the other musicians while playing it. Takes a lot of work to do that well and they tend to look down at people who won't or haven't put in the work.
 
#184
#185
the ombudsman said:
I don't know, I live in Canada, eh? :beaver:

I know about old big band stuff, which is very danceable, indeed. But when I hear jazz, I think about guys like Miles and Coltrane, who did impressive music, but not really stuff you can dance to, for the most part.
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Well included big band music and a lot of stuff that was danceable and let's not forget that before that we had menuet, gigue, sarabande etc that were all dance music.
 
#187
the ombudsman said:
I don't know, I live in Canada, eh? :beaver:

I know about old big band stuff, which is very danceable, indeed. But when I hear jazz, I think about guys like Miles and Coltrane, who did impressive music, but not really stuff you can dance to, for the most part.
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So when I hear Rock, I think of Led Zeppelin. And Black Dog isn't danceable.
People tell me there's more to rock than that, but I don't see the point of an open mind.
 
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#190
sears said:
I think jazz is full of elitists, and it should be, and they deserve to be elitists, and that's kind of the entire point of jazz.
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No, the entire point of jazz is to enjoy the music. What's so hard about this concept? There are people who like jazz. You don't have to.

My main reason for playing jazz, is that I like playing jazz, even the weird stuff. There are enough people who like jazz, to provide an audience.

On the other hand, what's wrong with a little bit of elitism? Within jazz, I'm aware that there are players who are better than me, in a variety of ways: Knowledge, technique, musicianship, creativity, etc. Those people form an elite. Pretending that there isn't one, is a form of political correctness that I don't subscribe to.

Next thing: Football is elitist, because I can't play football.
 
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#193
MattStonewall said:
What part of my comment lead you to respond that?
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Hum I guess I responded to too many people in a row. But I did re-read what you said and I think it isn't a good way to think about music.

If you judge music worth by how catchy it is ... you miss a whole lot of stuff that is beautiful but need a little bit more of the listener. And of course if how catchy it is is your only criteria, music is pretty shallow in the catchy scene, sometimes you may want more meat. Something that makes you wonder, a rich harmony etc.

I just relistened to what Dirty Loops makes it is amazing how they harmonize such shallow pop music. It is pop for a reason, it is made to be easy to digest.
 
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#195
fdeck said:
That was 30 years ago. Today, rock musician pays 300 dollars to play for 3 rock bands. ;)
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!?!? It's jazz bands who plays for jazz musicians in the audience. More people on stage than in the audience. Now, I didn't say anything how much pay it is. It was just a ... "no money above the fifth fret" catchprhase. There's no money in the augmented chord or closed voiced chord either. But I agree, so be it.

Jazz IS a musicians musicians music by and large. Maybe not pre-bop, but be-bop and post-bop. And, I don't mind it. I do listen to it, and play it. But it's not my deepest "to-the-core" passion. Because jazz is a way too big umbrella to equally embrace it all and say "I like jazz". There are way too many flavors and subgenres that's supposedly totally oppsosite, and that's why I say "I do like CERTAIN kinds of jazz". And I dislike very much "CERTAIN kinds of jazz" just as well.

I do love to play it slightly more than listening to it. When you do the tension and release and build up, and a song/arrangement finally turns loose into any groove, like a cunning fast walking bass line, it fires off something ... within me. Of course, everything has to mesh with the drummer...and the rest. And I like to hear chord changes, even key changes today...:eek: in one go.
 
#196
Honch said:
!?!? It's jazz bands who plays for jazz musicians in the audience. More people on stage than in the audience. Now, I didn't say anything how much pay it is. It was just a ... "no money above the fifth fret" catchprhase. There's no money in the augmented chord or closed voiced chord either. But I agree, so be it.

Jazz IS a musicians musicians music by and large. Maybe not pre-bop, but be-bop and post-bop. And, I don't mind it. I do listen to it, and play it. But it's not my deepest "to-the-core" passion. Because jazz is a way too big umbrella to equally embrace it all and say "I like jazz". There are way too many flavors and subgenres that's supposedly totally oppsosite, and that's why I say "I do like CERTAIN kinds of jazz". And I dislike very much "CERTAIN kinds of jazz" just as well.

I do love to play it slightly more than listening to it. When you do the tension and release and build up, and a song/arrangement finally turns loose into any groove, like a cunning fast walking bass line, it fires off something ... within me. Of course, everything has to mesh with the drummer...and the rest. And I like to hear chord changes, even key changes today...:eek: in one go.
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Yeah, I was just extending the joke, to cover the modern era of rock music. ;)

I don't mind playing and attending gigs with a limited audience. Sometimes the musicians talk about music that "deserves to be played." Fortunately, there is an audience in my locale, for jazz, and for interesting "legit" music. The sheer size of the audience isn't what motivates me.
 
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#197
fdeck said:
No, the entire point of jazz is to enjoy the music. What's so hard about this concept? There are people who like jazz. You don't have to.

..

On the other hand, what's wrong with a little bit of elitism?
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I think the idea of enjoying music for itself, without the social aspects of pop music, is the only point of art music anymore and art music is inherently elitist, and I don't see my post as particularly argumentative. There's nothing wrong with being elitist. That's what I was saying.
 
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#198
I would love to be one of the elite. Trouble is, we're using a word (Jazz) that means so many different things. Nearly 100 years of music - it can't be all jazz. Maybe it's like Classical music - to people who know, Classical is a 70 year period, to those less well educated, it's maybe a 600 year period, and baroque is as far away from George Gershwin as you can get. Jazz is like this - just too many variations to use one title. I've played Jazz. In a band doing Autumn Leaves and How High is the Moon - but then in another playing Glenn Miller big band Jazz. I guess there is a similarity - solos, but that's pretty well it. I tried to play in a progressive band - but we started and stopped at the same time but in between we all were expected to ignore the others, and I cannot do this kind of stuff.I don't think it's elitist, it's pretentious rubbish, with everyone showing off and not working with each other, but in competition. My jazz bass solos were all based around the melody - so sort of the tune with twiddly bits, and this I never changed. The others would just go off one one - and I just can't do that.
 
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#200
Audiophiles, hatred for Squier basses... you'll name it. Snobs and elitist are everywhere. Musical aristocrats. I'm thinking of coming up with some music or bass variant of the dirty "the Aristocrats" joke. It's an audition nevertheless. ;)
 

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