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Are jazz musicians musical elitists?
- Thread starter Jean Rodriguez
- Start date
Ouch! This must have been from a chapter of "How to win friends and influence people" that didn't make it past the editor.I have to bring up the elephant in the room here. Maybe even a white elephant too?Taboo subject. So sorry. Someone has to be the straight man. First off, I am an egghead.
My experience is this: Most elitism and snobbery in - actually - all kinds of music, but moreso like jazz and derived afro-american music, comes from white people. I e not from the origin country or population. The "second generation" that copied (read: stole) from somebody else. I e somebody elses music. I've encountered much less snobbery (if any) from any hispanic/latino who plays latin music, or even less elitism from Jamaicans regarding reggae. Or afro-american people at all.
In Scandinavian countries the elitism and snobbery comes mostly from those in charge, the established teaching forms, and Europeans and Kaukasians who thinks you can break down everything into logic and rudimental music theory. Getting over-intellectual about it. Over analysing. And the more you can do that, the more snobbery, and elitism turns up in the end. Beats me.
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My biggest gripe is that those elitist/snobbery things comes to a head, when those musicians CLAIMS that if they've learned to play jazz (or classical) they can easily play everything else like it would be kids stuff. When listening to them, it's almost always not the case at all. In fact very far from it.
I love when I hear such obscure guitarists like Martin Barre of Jethro Tull confess in an interview "Blues and rock I'll play by heart, it's more the core, the jazz and classical stuff is actually all just a pretend, like a good actor doing a convincing portrait of someone else...but it's not really me". I like such confessions, by a professional musician. BTW I've never heard any cover band who can just as easily shift from Giant Steps to a singer/songwriter tune, to old jazz, country polka, and pull off a Slipknot tune JUST AS CONVINCINGLY. You'll hear - after all - their shortcomings and where it's really at. It shows.
So verdict: All elitism/snobbery is ... kind of ... a pretend, when push comes to shove. We all love to put on a facade. The color green is more important and neutrally better than red. Or magenta. It's an advanced color, cultivated. I think it's more of just because it's an acquired taste, that it has become elitist and more valuable.
The funny thing is, way back when jazz started it was - considered - the lowest of lowest things musically. "Don't bring that anticipated notes to Europe please, stop the disease spreading like a plauge!" They were even street demonstrations in the 50's with picketing and signs that said "Respect the Jazz!" And you guessed it right, it was left wing people. You have absolutely no idea what the encyclopedias in school taught us about jazz. I find no other musical style that has taken such a turn. From as late as 1960, in the Swedish Academy (those who gives out Nobel Prize each year) dictionary they explain if you look up the word saxophone: "A horn instrument most played by negroes at circuses". And no more. I refrain to recall and quote here what is stated about banjos. Nevertheless, if it has turned elitist and snobbish, it is a remarkable class travel it has made!
What changed their minds, you think?
Yes I know, going out on a limb here, but so be it. Let the flame start (accompanied perhaps by a Rammstein song, or anything else appropriate).
I love jazz. I love rock. I love the blues. I love pop. Each style has its merits as well as its shortcomings. Appreciate them for what they are and for the positive things they offer. If someone looks down upon a certain style of music because they believe it's below the standard of the type they prefer, remind them of the positives and negatives of each genre. Even the hardest jazzer must have a tough time keeping his foot from tapping to the best rock and roll. Deep down there must be more than a few rockers who are blown away by different kinds of jazz, from bop to fusion. Whatever you're into, try to enjoy every musical form, because it's all put out there for your entertainment. Have a great day.
There are many subsets of jazz snobbery. Some cats live in that Trad & Swing era. Some are Bebop fanatics, while others are only into Straight-Ahead, Latin, Modern, or whatever else we label as Jazz.
Most of my very best friends are jazzers of all types who are funny, humble, and insanely gifted musically.
The snobbery usually rears its ugly head when some goof ball who talks too much asks to sit in and it becomes immediately clear he hasn't done his homework.
This happens to all of us - on both sides of the jam session. If your heart is in the right place and you're sincere in participating in the musical conversation, you have a much better chance of being asked back!
Most of my very best friends are jazzers of all types who are funny, humble, and insanely gifted musically.
The snobbery usually rears its ugly head when some goof ball who talks too much asks to sit in and it becomes immediately clear he hasn't done his homework.
This happens to all of us - on both sides of the jam session. If your heart is in the right place and you're sincere in participating in the musical conversation, you have a much better chance of being asked back!
Indeed. I knew a now-deceased and superb multi-instrumentalist who "Vibed" so brutally to anyone who he considered to be his lesser (pretty much everybody) that one day his 30-something y.o. son (a very talented guitarist, bassist, and singer himself) took all his guitars out into his front yard, laid them on the ground, and then stuck a .357 to his temple... ...and thereby gave up on trying to live up to his father's expectations.
The dad, and a lot of folks close to these peeps never really got over it.
The old dude didn't ever really lesson-up and change is Vibing though.
Only when commenting on their sport being the end all of atheletic achievement when comparing themselves to volleyball players or top major league level athletes playing other sports
But Jazz of course used to be the pop music of its time. Didn't turn into an elitist art form until bop came in and then the masses no longer understood it.
Of course, there are always exceptions. We are all generalizing, here.
My dad was classically trained. He got his music degree at Texas. He studied to be a symphony conductor and ended up as a high school band director. But, he was also an excellent performing musician. He did various forms of jazz and big band music on both trombone and upright bass. He never liked guitar. He said it was too much work for what you get out of it. I was the first person he ever saw play an electric bass in person. I didn't learn it until after I left home. He came to Virginia in the early 70s to visit my brother and me. He came to hear my band one night. He didn't tell me because he never would, but he told my brother he thought I was really good. I didn't tell him how much easier it is physically to play electric.
I don't think that's "snobbery". If someone can't cut it, they ruin it for everybody - of course people react negatively.
I was in a jam last week with a guitarist (rock/fusion) who said he knew how to play - but he didn't. The whole night I was hearing strange, ugly noises floating into my right ear. It took me two days to get my ear back after that session! I was pissed and I think I had a right to be. I didn't say anything to the guy afterwards - good or bad. I just packed up my gear and went home.
IMO "snobbery" only applies if someone is good at what they do but you just look down on it because it's not your thing.
An elite musician, yes. An "elitist" or snob? Not necessarily. Two different things, and we're talking about the second one.
Hendrix and Jamerson (and many others) were also "elite musicians" - but not "elitists".
I am aware of the meaning of the word and this was my opinion of a person whose music was mostly written for the ears of Royalty or aristocrats of that time period. I am only assuming if I had been hired to compose a piece of music for these affluent individuals, that I would give others who weren't chosen for such and elite task, the nose in the air as I walked by.
Yeah I guess this guy didn't look down on others and this is a direct quote
Yeah I guess this guy didn't look down on others and this is a direct quote
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What makes you think that's a thing of the past? People do it today and some of our contemporary musical icons also did it. Frank Zappa did it many many times - classical and jazz. He was no snob. Charles Mingus as well (He was admittedly a "jazz snob")
I never said anything in my comment about the music needing to be catchy to be good. What I said was the opinion of the elitists shouldn't matter to the OP, especially if all these people do is learn standards and they haven't composed anything original of their own. On top of that if they aren't putting their own music out there for people to check out and establish themselves seriously they aren't much of an artist. Being recognized by an audience because you get out there and perform or publish your works no matter how obscure is completely different than "being catchy".
Hey!You talkin' 'bout me??
Well, if the only things you'll play are at tempos above 320 b.p.m, in 17/8 time, and have chord progressions that would have Coltrane scratching his head--then yes.
