Are jazz musicians musical elitists?

[socialleper]

Allow me to elaborate a bit more on this. I've been playing music for 8 years covering a variety of popular genres and going to the Berklee in Puerto Rico seminar for 4 years in a row. During this time, I've noticed that in every program both in school and outside and guitar and bass lesson that I've taken gives an emphasis on jazz music. I've never minded jazz and can play it if needed, but I have never understood the elitism behind it (every jazz musician that I've known treats it like it's the holy grail of music and looks down on all other genres). I've always been a rocker at heart and as such, that is what I will naturally play and is what I excel at the most. Whenever I mention that or I start playing it, I notice the jazz heads of every age giving me snarky looks or the stink eye. They'll then start talking about how bass in rock is boring and how they prefer to transcribe a solo played by whichever jazz player they love or play the same standards over and over again. It's even gone as far that they started to snicker because I said that I was going to play an Ed Sheeran bass chord melody at a competition and they were gonna play solos that they transcribed.

Alright, I'm done ranting and I'll get to the point. Can someone please explain the elitism behind jazz and their musicians or is it just something that the jazz players here in Puerto Rico do? I don't mind the genre and can play it enough to defend myself, but I don't like the emphasis that it's given to it at every music program and most music schools that I've seen.

Its complicated, inaccessible, and niche. People get elitist about it because they can. I wouldn't say it is completely unique to jazz; many people are particular to their style of music. There are a lot of metal snobs for a lot of the same reasons.

What's the real reason? People are d!@ks and like being d!&cks when it makes them feel better about themselves.

 

[MattStonewall]

There's also black metal elitists that believe if something is commercially acceptable then it's not cult so their recording quality and playing ability is quite horrible at times but they love that stuff. I would not be concerned with people who live in their own make believe world. My main question would be have any of these elitist jazz musicians composed anything worthwhile themselves which has caught the attention within the genre audence itself? If not then they aren't worth much.

 

[joebar]

the learning about harmony allows a person to be able to reharmonize any song and make it their own which I find the most inspiring thing about jazz and its concepts.
then you can go back and play anything else and you will always know what note to play when and where.

 

[DavC]

i cover a few points here ... studied classical piano ( and several other instruments ) from age 6 thru 16 ... then started jazz studies ... all while playing bass/keys/vocals in various rock ... and even trumpet in one band that did some South Side Johnny ...

elitist ... never !!! i've always played with very good players that all had different levels of reading / theory skills ... learning how to communicate musical ideas is work some times ... ! just do it

maybe being less of a dik comes with age ... and/or empathy ... or spend a few years teaching beginners !

being well rounded will do one more good than being a 'smartass' or being overly 'daft' ... YMMV

 

[CGremlin]

Try playing with a classical musician. At least IME, it gets even worse.

I've played with snobby classical guys, but the bar-none best musician I've played with was a classical pianist with a Master's in composition and piano performance from Julliard. The guy had perfect pitch, could sight-read anything, and could play almost anything after having heard it once. Classical was his preference, but he truly loved music of all kinds and would play anything with reckless abandon, and was one of the nicest people you could ever hope to meet. He was ridiculously free with his knowledge too, and would happily talk about anything music-related. His name is Chris Kypros, and for you guys in the Hampton Roads (VA) area, if you ever get a chance to play with him, TAKE IT!

 

[Clef_de_fa]

Neither engage in snobbery like Classical musicians. I always get a kick out of those fogheads who are so proud of their reading skills, but when you take their chart away from them, they go catatonic. It doesn't matter that they've played the same score 1000 times, they still need their blankie.

but when an orchestra of 50 or more people play together, you need those to be sure no one will try to mess everything with their "creativity"

 

[Clef_de_fa]

for real. Not the first one I've met who couldn't play it if it wasn't on paper.
Even my mother who taught piano and voice struggled with it.
Let me clarify my definition of classically trained. I don't mean a university degree in music, rather a person who took lessons from a private instructor for years. Many of these instructors don't go into theory very much.

ahhhhh but this isn't the same thing at all, it could happen with every instrument as most of the time the teacher will teach how to get through the song but nothing more.

I'm pretty sure someone who play in an orchestra can play whatever you throw at them.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

"Dumb it down" is a pretty elitist phrase.

when you often see people call any groupe of three note a triplet ... you know ... step up your game a little bit

 

[Clef_de_fa]

There's also black metal elitists that believe if something is commercially acceptable then it's not cult so their recording quality and playing ability is quite horrible at times but they love that stuff. I would not be concerned with people who live in their own make believe world. My main question would be have any of these elitist jazz musicians composed anything worthwhile themselves which has caught the attention within the genre audence itself? If not then they aren't worth much.

if everyone thought like that, composition wouldn't progress at all. We would still play a melody over a drone like it was the case during the middle age

 

[Jim Carr]

I think "Elitists" can be found in all forms of music, however I lean more towards a classical composer who is able to hear many instruments playing different parts in their head and putting it down on paper, and then hearing it come to life using many musicians is what I consider "Elitist"

Guilty as charged!

 

[Eidolon0274]

Try playing with a classical musician. At least IME, it gets even worse.

There is less drama in a strip club changing room than a brass ensemble.

 

[Jim Carr]

...Can someone please explain the elitism behind jazz and their musicians or is it just something that the jazz players here in Puerto Rico do? I don't mind the genre and can play it enough to defend myself, but I don't like the emphasis that it's given to it at every music program and most music schools that I've seen.

Jazz embodies the entire tonal language of Western music, and has a 100+ year history of recorded performance and notated music. Jazz combines composition, instrumental ensembles of all kinds, instrumental and vocal soloists, sophisticated notation, and improvisation at a high level of virtuosity. Jazz revolutionized Western music by giving voice to the musical brilliance of African Americans—that had been withheld from the western world for over 300 years. Jazz has changed the world forever.

On occasion, Jazz has influenced virtually all other music genres and styles, and has borrowed from all styles and genres. During the 30s, 40s, and 50s, it also dominated music heard on the radio, at the movies, and later on TV—and not just in North American. It has also found a home in the University music department. It has a large instructional literature and teaching tradition embedded in notation.

As much as I love rock, blues, reggae, gospel, hip-hop, gogo, celtic penny whistle, soca, high life, blue grass, motown, North Indian Raga, Salsa, Pibroch etc., Jazz has a bigger repertoire than most of these styles, a longer history than many, and a hugely sophisticated harmonic and rhythmic language that contains all the other genres, at least to a large extent. It is the musical colossus of the 20th Century.

IMHO.

 

[Watchootognbout]

Although I am an avowed Fusion,Prog Metal,Jazz Metal and complex music fan,I have no reason at all to be an elitist.
Because I am not as progressed as I should be.

I love complex time signatures and inverted chord voicings.
10,000 notes zooming in all diferent directions.
My mind NEEDS it to chew on.



But I cannot tolerate listening to simple song composition and low effort music forms.
It irritates me to no end.
It's like listening to a nursery rhyme.

 

[swafran]

... wait a minute ... this is one of those where the answer is contained inside the question, isn't it?

 

[garp]

Some of them might be, but certainly not all of them are.

I'm a fan of jazz, but not a jazz musician. However, a personal friend of mine is an accomplished professional jazz saxophonist. A few months ago, we were talking about guitarists in general, when he confessed to me that his favorite recorded guitar tone of all time was created by none other than Stevie Ray Vaughan.

 

[rogerbmiller]

Are rock musicians 3-chord idiots?

Some are some aren't. Everyone is different.

 

[stringtapper]

…hugely sophisticated harmonic and rhythmic language that literally contains all the other genres, at least to a large extent.

That's the answer right there.

 

[Jefff]

I haven't read the whole thread but in my experience, Jazz musicians only want to know if you can play. That's all....can you play.

Just like any other skilled player.

Oh....and don't be a dick.

 

[Joebone]

Neither engage in snobbery like Classical musicians. I always get a kick out of those fogheads who are so proud of their reading skills, but when you take their chart away from them, they go catatonic. It doesn't matter that they've played the same score 1000 times, they still need their blankie.

Not entirely true. Check out all those pianists, violinists, classical guitarists who can deliver many, many hours of difficult music from memory…Conductors conducting super-dense music without scores...

 

[swafran]

Chicks dig hugely sophisticated harmonic and rhythmic stuff