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Are jazz musicians musical elitists?

#145
A few years back, I overheard a really funny discussion on the playground after school when my son was in 3rd grade. I hang with the Mommy crew while the kids frolic and one said to the other that her husband kept taking her to dinner on Friday nights at a place where they have live jazz.
"Oh, that sounds nice" said Mom 2
"Well, it sounds like it would be, but jazz always makes me so nervous. I get to go out to dinner one night of the week, but we aren't allowed to talk. And when I try to listen, it sounds like they know the songs, but just refuse to play them correctly for some reason. It sounds almost like a song you know, like a regular song, but you can never be sure and it just makes me uncomfortable the whole time.. And then one guy will play a bunch of things that just sound crazy and all the other musicians look like he did something good and I feel pressure to clap."

I was very amused, as you can imagine.
 
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#146
Honch said:
From as late as 1960, in the Swedish Academy (those who gives out Nobel Prize each year) dictionary they explain if you look up the word saxophone: "A horn instrument most played by negroes at circuses". And no more. I refrain to recall and quote here what is stated about banjos. Nevertheless, if it has turned elitist and snobbish, it is a remarkable class travel it has made! :thumbsup:

What changed their minds, you think? ;)
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If I had to guess, I'd say Jan Johansson and Georg Riedel (piano and bass, respectively). When I listen to them, I don't hear elitism or musical theft. I just hear jazz in Swedish.



Listening to these two -- a Swede and a Hungarian -- is like hearing John Lewis and Percy Heath of the MJQ. I love them all, and they all stood on the shoulders of giants.

Musical snobbery may be a real thing at music school, OP, but don't let it get you down. You're going to Berklee in Puerto Rico! What a gift.
 
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#147
corinpills said:
"Well, it sounds like it would be, but jazz always makes me so nervous. I get to go out to dinner one night of the week, but we aren't allowed to talk. And when I try to listen, it sounds like they know the songs, but just refuse to play them correctly for some reason. It sounds almost like a song you know, like a regular song, but you can never be sure and it just makes me uncomfortable the whole time.. And then one guy will play a bunch of things that just sound crazy and all the other musicians look like he did something good and I feel pressure to clap."
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?!? I don't get it. Know the songs but refuse to play them correctly? So she might be implying that she actually has knowledge of jazz then she must be a musician herself! Which is unlikely! I don't know jack about jazz, but at least I wouldn't be dumb enough to say something like that.
 
#148
I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, people have quoted "Jazz players can play rock but rock players can't play jazz". so there is a bit of an elitism about playing the jazz genre given its harmonic complexity compared with rock. Further, in jazz, the emphasis on improvisation really does outstrip the virtuousity required, from an improvisational aspect, in rock.

On the other hand, as a busy jazz musician, I find rock harder to play than jazz, and respect people who do it. The reason is the following:

a) Rock has to sound a lot like the recording -- same hooks and stuff,. I Jazz you can just go to MSU (Make Stuff Up) and it passes wonderfully.
b) The musicians you play with normally shun charts in rock -- not so in jazz. You can learn tunes faster in a jazz band than in a Rock band if you have a good chart for each song.
c) There is more memorization in rock than jazz -- in jazz we have charts and in Rock I have found you're lucky to get a sheet that gives the structure

Verse
Verse
Chorus
Solo Interluded
Verse
Chorus
Outro

So, although the notes and virtuosity in rock seems to be less than in jazz, the fact that rehearsal is so hard and song structure "negotiated" by the band makes the genre harder for me. I don't look forward to rock rehearsals with all the slow progress in such bands I have been in, even with good players. Also, I have found the rock situations to be frustrating because the musicians don't seem to want to make it easy on the band by playing the song the same way it is on the recording, structure wise.

My dream is to put together a band of rock musicians who are also killer jazz players so we can provide dinner music and rock music at the same gig (like a wedding).
 
#153
swafran said:
Chicks dig hugely sophisticated harmonic and rhythmic stuff
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I suppose it is irony, but... Haha—if only!!! :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

Well, OK, a few (Chicks dig...) maybe, but Bass has gotten me more chicks than Chromatic Harmony, Figured Bass, Counterpoint, Jazz Theory, and Ear Training combined—for REAL! :roflmao:
 
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#155
Look...Allot of musicians are elitist. It goes with the ego it takes to play out. Jazz players will say you don't have the chops, blues payers will say you don't have the pocket. Metal players will probably say you don't have the power. This is an internet topic. In life, people want you to play with authority, no matter what kind of music you play.

Play it like it's your life. You'll be fine.
 
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#156
Jazz became known as an American form of Classical music. As such it became safe to be added to the curriculum of public schools. It took a while when Jazz stopped producing a high percentage of the popular hits and the fun "pop" stage bands increasingly turned to playing the classics of jazz taken from the more concert band versus dance band songs from the Big Band era.

With those educational credentials available at most music departments at the high school and upper levels for Jazz, "the American Classical music" versus the low church(with the high church playing classical Bach on their pipe organs), garage and bar roots came the Jazz Snob
 
#157
Jhengsman said:
Jazz became known as an American form of Classical music. As such it became safe to be added to the curriculum of public schools. It took a while when Jazz stopped producing a high percentage of the popular hits and the fun "pop" stage bands increasingly turned to playing the classics of jazz taken from the more concert band versus dance band songs from the Big Band era.

With those educational credentials available at most music departments at the high school and upper levels for Jazz, "the American Classical music" versus the low church(with the high church playing classical Bach on their pipe organs), garage and bar roots came the Jazz Snob
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Shoots, there is a lot to this, but as one who plays Jazz, Classical (high Church), Gospel (low Church), blues, reggae, modern/urban R&B, Polka, Klezmer, Hawaiian, bluegrass, Soca, (and even) country, etc., I must say, I love ALL of IT!!! I don't care about any supposed "artistic"or "stylistic" hierarchy. I am certain I am not alone on that. I just love to work with great musicians, of any kind. :smug: :smug: :smug:

Coming from a background in double bass (upright), but having gotten on the electric bass as a teen in the early 60's, I feel "strange attractions" to both! :thumbsup:

I am very certain I am not the only one who is an old schooled Jazz/Classical cat who spends a lot of time "on the other side." :roflmao:

Do I need to post pics? Can. :D
 
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#160
Are Jazz musicians elitists?
Meh, some are, some aren't. Me, I'm a Rock and Blues guy. That having been said.....
One of my best friend is a Jazz guy, a very fine Guitar player. Is he an elitist? Kind of, I suppose.
However, hanging out with him (And his Jazz Drummer friend), I saw a whole bunch great musicians I never would have seen on my own.
John Scofield, Lee Rittenour, Mike Stern, Oz Noy, Dave Weckl, Steve Smith, Anton Fig, Jeff Berlin, Darryl Jones, Victor Bailey.......
Whether or not Jazz players are elitists, I'm certainly better off for having hung out with a couple.
 
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