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Army to shoot live pigs for training

#61
FL Knifemaker said:
They are often complimented by both sides for being fair. If there's another station like that, please let me know :)
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i don't really care about anyone in the media's opinions I normally extract the facts and draw my own conclusions.

I very much prefer the newspaper to TV news for this very reason. It's much easier to take a marker and black out the BS. ;)

the only TV I trust for accuracy is CSPAN.
 
#62
lowendmafia said:
Please do not criticize the military if you never served in the military.
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I'm sorry, but unless I am completely misunderstanding what you are saying, I just can't accept this as anything but misguided. Why does being in the military / the actions having been done by the military put the decisions or actions beyond reproach?

If you mean I cannot criticise troops, does the mere fact that I have never served mean I cannot criticise the actions of the soldiers involved in Abu Garib?

What about the actions of the troops involved in Mai Ly or the TigerForce unit during Vietnam?

If you mean the decision making process of the military, does the use of "interrogation" techniques in GitMo get a pass because they were made the military?

What about the fire bombing of Dresden, again, beyong criticism because it was a military decision?

I am sorry, even military decisions and personnel should be subject to fair criticism, as with anything else.

I will agree that uninformed criticism can be misplaced and misguided, but that doesn't mean that the only valid criticism can come from within military ranks. Indeed, such thinking is downright dangerous and an affront to the freedoms the military is there to protect.
 
#63
Bob Clayton said:
what happens to the body after the pig dies?
what if it doesn't die?
will they put it out of its misery or will it die of the wounds?
are the pigs out when they are shot, or are they fully alert, capable of feeling pain?
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It's a standard practice in most of the world's militaries to train the doctors like this, if they don't encounter gunshot wounds that often. The med school guys who come to the army as conscripts around here are trained the same way.

The pigs are pumped full of drugs so they don't feel a thing. They are shot at with a pistol, then operated by the team of doctors so that they would survive. After they are bandaged, they are slaughtered immediately, before the drugs can wear off. I assume they aren't suitable for consumption because of all the drugs they are given. This is at least what the med school guys told us in the army medic training.
 
#65
Mark Latimour said:
I'm sorry, but unless I am completely misunderstanding what you are saying, I just can't accept this as anything but misguided. Why does being in the military / the actions having been done by the military put the decisions or actions beyond reproach?

If you mean I cannot criticise troops, does the mere fact that I have never served mean I cannot criticise the actions of the soldiers involved in Abu Garib?

What about the actions of the troops involved in Mai Ly or the TigerForce unit during Vietnam?

If you mean the decision making process of the military, does the use of "interrogation" techniques in GitMo get a pass because they were made the military?

What about the fire bombing of Dresden, again, beyong criticism because it was a military decision?

I am sorry, even military decisions and personnel should be subject to fair criticism, as with anything else.

I will agree that uninformed criticism can be misplaced and misguided, but that doesn't mean that the only valid criticism can come from within military ranks. Indeed, such thinking is downright dangerous.
Click to expand...

Look man, I got out as a Captain and decisions like this would come from way over my head and passed down the line. I guess what I should have said is don't criticize the troops, they are just doing what they are told. As far as your criticisms, while you are entitled to your opinions, but you are still on the outside looking in. You are only seeing what the media tells you, I am in no way saying that Abu Garib was warranted, in fact I would be the harshest critic of it because I was an Intelligence Officer and if any of my interrogators or MPs would have done that I would have had them in front of a court martial as soon as possible. What I would say about this is that they were most likely just following what their leaders told them to do, and that is sad. Also, being an intelligence guy and having done many interrogations, we are not allowed to do anything that would be considered "inhumane," we strictly follow the Geneva Convention (my soldiers went to bed reading it). The problem is the nature of the prisoners, some of them have been there so long that they will tell you whatever you want to hear even if it is a complete fallacy, and bad intel is worse than no intel. I am assuming that you are referring to water-boarding, right? The decision to water-board would come directly from the president and has only been used twice since the start of the war. Also, they guys that do it are either the most senior Warrant Officers or Ex-military contractors. It is not like Pvt. so and so is pouring a jug of water down every enemy's throat.

I guess my main point is that decisions like that are made by Generals and Presidents and I hate when people blame the troops for following orders.
 
#68
lowendmafia said:
Please do not criticize the military if you never served in the military. I really don't care if you use bumper-sticker arguments to criticize Fox News, the President, or even the war, but do not blame this on the troops. You have no clue how the military works and why they do things until you join. I thought the I knew what it would be like before I joined, but I was dead wrong. I loved my time in the Army and wish that everyone in the country had to at least go though basic training. Also, any thing that we can do to help train soldiers for combat readiness is a good thing. Pigs have very similar skin to humans, in fact tattooists learn how to tattoo on pig skin. If I were to have had a soldier on my team that had been shot, I would have been less prepared to treat his wounds than I should have been, and that is simply unacceptable.
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Up to this point I hadn't seen anyone blaming anything on the troops. Did you or was this just a boilerplate statement?
:hmm:
 
#72
Brad Johnson said:
Links? Or do they just say they're complimented by others?
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That's TB political entrapment, nice try Brad :) Anything that I link to that would prove my point would get me banned :mad:

It just seems like the non US members must scour the internet to find crazy American topics to post here :rollno: We could start doing that but I doubt any of us give a flying F what goes on in their countries :o I'm glad the US is such a great source of entertainment :p
 
#74
lowendmafia said:
Look man, I got out as a Captain and decisions like this would come from way over my head and passed down the line. I guess what I should have said is don't criticize the troops, they are just doing what they are told. As far as your criticisms, while you are entitled to your opinions, but you are still on the outside looking in. You are only seeing what the media tells you, I am in no way saying that Abu Garib was warranted, in fact I would be the harshest critic of it because I was an Intelligence Officer and if any of my interrogators or MPs would have done that I would have had them in front of a court martial as soon as possible. What I would say about this is that they were most likely just following what their leaders told them to do, and that is sad. Also, being an intelligence guy and having done many interrogations, we are not allowed to do anything that would be considered "inhumane," we strictly follow the Geneva Convention (my soldiers went to bed reading it). The problem is the nature of the prisoners, some of them have been there so long that they will tell you whatever you want to hear even if it is a complete fallacy, and bad intel is worse than no intel. I am assuming that you are referring to water-boarding, right? The decision to water-board would come directly from the president and has only been used twice since the start of the war. Also, they guys that do it are either the most senior Warrant Officers or Ex-military contractors. It is not like Pvt. so and so is pouring a jug of water down every enemy's throat.

I guess my main point is that decisions like that are made by Generals and Presidents and I hate when people blame the troops for following orders.
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Which happened when in this thread? People seem to be talking about the policy and not blaming the troops.

:hmm:
 
#77
FL Knifemaker said:
That's TB political entrapment, nice try Brad :) Anything that I link to that would prove my point would get me banned :mad:
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No, that is just a copout on your part... unless you think links to compliments about a tv show are forbidden. Don't worry, I didn't expect you to provide any. I see more people laughing at Fox news, what with much of the recent crap they've pulled, than anything. Like the photoshopped pics of people who criticized them. Show me the compliments with what you contended from other news organizations.

Or maybe you can link to that TB policy forbidding it instead.
:cool:

It just seems like the non US members must scour the internet to find crazy American topics to post here :rollno: We could start doing that but I doubt any of us give a flying F what goes on in their countries :o I'm glad the US is such a great source of entertainment :p
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Yes, because news is so hard to find.
:D
 
#79
Brad Johnson said:
Which happened when in this thread? People seem to be talking about the policy and not blaming the troops.

:hmm:
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Look man, it is obvious who you are and what you stand for. I do not agree with it, nor do I agree with anything you say but I am not going to cry if you say something I disagree with. If you look on the first page of this thread there are a few posts that, to my eyes, are criticisms of the practice; which is done by the troops. Opinions are opinions man, I just didn't want this to turn into an anti-war, anti-military, anti-whatever discussion. People outside the military do not understand the military, plain and simple.

As far as fox news is concerned, most people that hate it do not watch it. For EVERY issue discussed there is at least one liberal and one conservative, that is as fair as you can be (at least politically). The problem with fox is that other media is so slanted that we have grown accustomed to left-wing bias that even things in the center seem right-wing. Also, most of the criticisms are of opinion shows like O'Reilly, which is the most watched cable news program in history, or Hannity and Colmes where the brunt of the criticism is directed at Hannity (a conservative). The news shows like Special Report, The Fox Report, Studio B, The Live Desk, and Happening Now are news reports and all opinions are derived from liberal and conservative guests.

Cable news ratings: Invalid Link Removed
 

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