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ASCAP is serious

It has?

There are still musicians. There are still producers. There are still recordings being made.

No industry or profession has been wiped off the map.





Yes, it is.

The market no longer values a product at a level it previously did. Whether that is because of a replacement good, a general change in societal tastes, or anything else is irrelevant. It's just basic business economics.




I'm OK with the market deciding they value the profession of song writer and recording artist less, and engaging in the economic behavior that entails.

Folks aren't entitled to make a good living doing what they want.





Because the artists have signed contracts allowing it.

I'm not big on protecting people from their own choices.

Yes, your right. The music industry, per se, and the profession of musician has not literally been, "wiped off the map". It may as well have been, but yes, it's still there. A mere shadow of its former self on life-support. But certainly still there. So I inappropriately exaggerated my point by using a figure of speech.

I would suggest, though, that the market didn't decide to devalue the profession of song writer and recording artist. A tribunal decided that by the way they ruled on music streaming based on a system that did not envision anything like music streaming when it was originally created. The tactic was quite brilliant, actually, on the part of the streamers. But that is what created the present market that devalues the profession of song writer and recording artist. Nothing more.

There's no law of nature that says there has to be music streaming in its present form. It came into being solely by way of a business decision. A business decision that arguably decimated the industry. Business decisions are not made in a vacuum, and this particular business decision constitutes extraordinarily poor public policy. It has had repercussions that are detrimental far and wide economically while benefiting only a select few. I make no argument that there is anything necessarily unusual about that. Just that this has been harmful, that's all, and that it's neither a law of nature nor the laws of business economics, per se, that made it so. People made it so.

I understand the concept, for example, that each stream is valued per person while each spin on broadcast media is valued based upon how many listeners may hear it. But that concept in my view evades the real issue. The real issue in my view is that the practice of music streaming in its present form has been permitted to displace the sale of recorded music in a way that is not equitable. This did not necessarily have to happen. It's not like the immutable law of gravity made it happen. Again, it happened because it was permitted to happen.

I agree we may all have to just get used to it. When the Money Power speaks, everybody listens.

I have concocted a novel strategy for myself personally with respect to releasing new musical material that I believe will work very well in the present market, and bring in lots of cash. We'll see. Where there's a will, there's a way.
 
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pay a flat rate per song based on a percentage of what you earned to play that song, say one percent. You play a typical bar night and make a hundred off a 40 song setlist, you pay forty bucks for the use of those songs.
is that lawyer maths? If your gig was 100 songs long you would be playing for free!

Only the singer is performing the copyrighted material (words and tune ) does that mean he pays twice and the drummer bassist and rhythm guitarist get a free pass, lead only pays on the tunes he plays the recorded solos?
 
Perhaps it would be equitable to allow all businesses to charge licensing fees. For example, hand tool makers could form a society to sell all hand tools for personal use only, and those using the tools in the course and scope of commercial business pay a yearly licensing fee.
It may be you're thinking about something like the patent system.

I’m not a tool maker so it wouldn’t help me. But I like to build with LEGOs, so I’m going to copyright all my creations, and if I ever go into a bar and see someone building one of my LEGO designs, I’m going to write the bar owners a letter telling them they owe me my $8000 licensing fee, or else.
So far as I know, you can copyright a LEGO creation.
 
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IMO music is ENTERTAINMENT. Entertain the right people and they'll pay you well for it. Nobody 'deserves' jack simply because they deem themselves 'artists.'

There's a difference of opinion there, which is probably the whole foundation for this whole argument. Without trying to be smartass: What makes music good? that a lot of people are entertained by it? Or is there occasionally that one song that hits you and makes you stop whatever you're doing and listen.
Is music in it's root, so not whether it pays well or not, democracy?
 
is that lawyer maths? If your gig was 100 songs long you would be playing for free!

Only the singer is performing the copyrighted material (words and tune ) does that mean he pays twice and the drummer bassist and rhythm guitarist get a free pass, lead only pays on the tunes he plays the recorded solos?

No clue where you got that quote from, but I didn't write that. Oddly, it's now the second time I've had a quote misattributed to me in this thread.
 
The exclusive right granted in section 106(4) for a musical work is the right "to perform the copyrighted work publically."

Under the definitions in section 101 of the Act, "To perform or display a work “publicly” means ... to perform ... it at a place open to the public or at any place where a substantial number of persons outside of a normal circle of a family and its social acquaintances is gathered."

I've always read these provisions to mean that a performance at a wedding or private party is not a public performance subject to the exclusive rights granted by the Act, but I've never specfically researched whether those provisions have been litigated in that context. I'd be curious to get @Music Attorney's take on that question.

Hey Febs. Will get back to you as soon as possible.
 
No clue where you got that quote from, but I didn't write that. Oddly, it's now the second time I've had a quote misattributed to me in this thread.
Normally your own stuff appears as plain text and that's what I quoted so it came up as attributed to you. To avoid that you need to keep your own quotes in the quote

The hypothetical question stands though.
 
is that lawyer maths? If your gig was 100 songs long you would be playing for free!

Only the singer is performing the copyrighted material (words and tune ) does that mean he pays twice and the drummer bassist and rhythm guitarist get a free pass, lead only pays on the tunes he plays the recorded solos?

Ah. You're referring to the post where my opening sentence was "Having trouble with showing the posts, but I did not respond "Yep" to the post below as indicated in Ross Lovell's post." For reasons I couldn't figure out, I wasn't able to quote the language from Ross' post in such way to show the post he was referring to and show that he said I said "Yep" to it. Therefore, I was trying to point out that I did not say yep to that post which I cut and pasted in (which is maybe why you thought I wrote it).

Let me try this another way. I did not write the post that contained the language you are referring to. Ross Levell quoted me in post #198 as saying "Yep" to that post which I also did not do.
 
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The real issue in my view is that the practice of music streaming in its present form has been permitted to displace the sale of recorded music in a way that is not equitable.

It hasn't been permitted. It is unstoppable. The consumer wants streaming, and doesn't want physical media.

Your statement reads the same to me as -

"The automobile was permitted to displace the horse in a way that was not equitable."
 
It hasn't been permitted. It is unstoppable. The consumer wants streaming, and doesn't want physical media.

Your statement reads the same to me as -

"The automobile was permitted to displace the horse in a way that was not equitable."

Well, we could go around and around in circles with this one for ever. Of course, I don't want to do that, and neither do you.

I agree that these days the consumer doesn't want physical media, and does want streaming. Whether streaming is unstoppable or not I don't know, but I will concede it probably is unstoppable at this point. However, just how much the pricing structure might be modified to be more friendly to content providers remains unknown. It would benefit the industry for that to change. Like when Henry Ford doubled the salary of his employees, for example, because he realized the way things were was inherently dysfunctional and needed to change, which it did. So we'll see.

Your comment that artists sign contracts that are not necessarily in their best interests, and that this is their own fault is directly on point. There are certain ways to negotiate these things. You have to know about them.
 
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Like when Henry Ford doubled the salary of his employees, for example, because he realized they way things were was inherently dysfunctional and needed to change, which it did.

That story, like Washington chopping down the cherry tree - is complete falsehood.

Ford doubled the minimum wage his plants paid in order to retain employees and compete with his competition. This is the same guy who had striking workers murdered.
 
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That story, like Washington chopping down the cherry tree - is complete falsehood.

Ford doubled the minimum wage his plants paid in order to retain employees and compete with his competition. This is the same guy who had striking workers murdered.

Yeah, Ford did go crazy, that's for sure! Maybe there was too much lead in the water pipes in his mansion. Like the ancient Roman emperors.

Any references you might conveniently have for why Ford doubled the wages in his factories would be appreciated. People do change. And they do go crazy, too.
 
That story, like Washington chopping down the cherry tree - is complete falsehood.

Ford doubled the minimum wage his plants paid in order to retain employees and compete with his competition. This is the same guy who had striking workers murdered.
Henry Ford was an excellent example of a horrible person who would do the right thing when cornered like a rat and given no choice - and then spin it into a supposed act of philanthropy on his part.
 
Yeah, Ford did go crazy, that's for sure! Maybe there was too much lead in the water pipes in his mansion. Like the ancient Roman emperors.

He was hiring folks to kill striking workers BEFORE the $5/day wage.


Any references you might conveniently have for why Ford doubled the wages in his factories would be appreciated. People do change. And they do go crazy, too.


From the Henry Ford museum -

"Explosive production gains came at the cost of worker satisfaction. The very goal of the moving assembly line was to take what had been relatively skilled craftwork and reduce it to simple, rote tasks. Workers who had taken pride in their labor were quickly bored by the more mundane assembly process. Some took to lateness and absenteeism. Many simply quit, and Ford found itself with a crippling labor turnover rate of 370 percent. The assembly line depended on a steady crew of employees to staff it, and training replacements was expensive. Ford reasoned that a bigger paycheck might make the factory’s tedium more tolerable."

...and Ford didn't really increase wages -

"Lost in the headlines was the fact that the pay increase was not a raise per se, it was a profit sharing plan. If you made $2.30 a day under the old pay schedule, for example, you still made that wage under the Five-Dollar plan. But if you met all of the company’s requirements, Ford gave you a bonus of $2.70.

Part of Henry Ford’s reasoning behind the Five-Dollar Day was that workers who were troubled by money problems at home would be distracted on the job. If higher pay was intended to eliminate these problems, then Ford would make sure that his employees were using his largesse “properly.” The company established a Sociological Department to monitor its employees’ habits beyond the workplace.

To qualify for the pay increase, workers had to abstain from alcohol, not physically abuse their families, not take in boarders, keep their homes clean, and contribute regularly to a savings account. Moral righteousness and prudent saving were all well and good, but they were not generally an employer’s business—at least not outside of working hours. In contrast, Ford Motor Company inspectors came to workers’ homes, asked probing questions, and observed general living conditions. If “violations” were discovered, the inspectors offered advice and pointed the families to resources offered through the company. Not until these problems were corrected did the employee receive his full bonus."
 
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He was hiring folks to kill striking workers BEFORE the $5/day wage.





From the Henry Ford museum -

"Explosive production gains came at the cost of worker satisfaction. The very goal of the moving assembly line was to take what had been relatively skilled craftwork and reduce it to simple, rote tasks. Workers who had taken pride in their labor were quickly bored by the more mundane assembly process. Some took to lateness and absenteeism. Many simply quit, and Ford found itself with a crippling labor turnover rate of 370 percent. The assembly line depended on a steady crew of employees to staff it, and training replacements was expensive. Ford reasoned that a bigger paycheck might make the factory’s tedium more tolerable."

...and Ford didn't really increase wages -

"Lost in the headlines was the fact that the pay increase was not a raise per se, it was a profit sharing plan. If you made $2.30 a day under the old pay schedule, for example, you still made that wage under the Five-Dollar plan. But if you met all of the company’s requirements, Ford gave you a bonus of $2.70.

Part of Henry Ford’s reasoning behind the Five-Dollar Day was that workers who were troubled by money problems at home would be distracted on the job. If higher pay was intended to eliminate these problems, then Ford would make sure that his employees were using his largesse “properly.” The company established a Sociological Department to monitor its employees’ habits beyond the workplace.

To qualify for the pay increase, workers had to abstain from alcohol, not physically abuse their families, not take in boarders, keep their homes clean, and contribute regularly to a savings account. Moral righteousness and prudent saving were all well and good, but they were not generally an employer’s business—at least not outside of working hours. In contrast, Ford Motor Company inspectors came to workers’ homes, asked probing questions, and observed general living conditions. If “violations” were discovered, the inspectors offered advice and pointed the families to resources offered through the company. Not until these problems were corrected did the employee receive his full bonus."

Holy cow! Thanks for taking the time to put that up there. Didn't have any idea.
 
I havent read the whole thread, but I'll say again like I have in other threads on this subject.

As it pertains to radio, since that has been brought up, it works something like this...

We pay about 12% or so per month of advertising income to BMI, ASCAP, and SESAC each. There are allowable deductions (trade out advertising, political and some other categories). It isnt a lot per month, but only because we are a small station. Imagine for example, you sold $12,000 in advertising in a month, that's around $1400 per month x3. There is a flat rate you can pay too, which in our case probably works out best. SESAC overcharged for YEARS and have been renegotiating contracts for a while, so our payout to them is not much now. We actually got money back a couple of years ago. Basically, it makes it not worth it to make money. The more you make, the more they take.

That is the definition of extortion.

As to having a radio or music in your workplace, that is more of a "rebroadcast" issue IMO. As I have understood it in my 35 years in the broadcasting business. If you have a radio on a shelf or your desk, and I walk in and it is playing our station, that's fine. If I walk in and it is coming out of a speaker in the ceiling from a storewide speaker system, that is considered 'rebroadcast" of a signal. I don't see a difference but that is how it has been looked at for as long as I can remember. As to the radio on the desk in the Dr's office check in window, I don't see how that can ever be stopped or even regulated. There's no difference between that and driving down the road with your windows down and your music cranked.

Our station operates a local access TV channel with messages and advertising. The audio is the programming from one of our stations. Most offices and some businesses have it on a TV to have some music going in the business...how would you regulate that?

I agree that artists, songwriters, and the like need to be compensated, but the way it's done is crazy. And to go to the little corner bar that wants to have music to sell some extra beers on Saturday night, and hammer them and the local guys playing for $300 split between four or five guys is stupid. Yes, stupid. Get it from the Westwood Ones, and Sirius/XMs, and those mega millionaires. I have a good friend who wrote a song that went to number one on the Billboard country music charts in the late 80s or early 90s. He still worked a day job. He finally went out and started touring as a bluegrass artist and makes his living that way now.

BnB
 
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Because ASCAP has over a hundred different licenses and rate schedules, one will likely fit your needs. ASCAP operates under the principle that similarly situated users should be treated similarly. This assures fairness and consistency in our licensing. For example, rates for restaurants of the same size, with the same use of music are the same regardless of whether the restaurant is in Oshkosh or New York City.

This is the part that is messed up in their thinking IMO though. A 300 seat restaurant in New York City cant be compared to a 300 seat restaurant in say, Kokomo Indiana. The market isnt the same. They aren't going to bring in the same amount of revenue. The New York location can charge more and the market they are in can sustain that.

Back to my radio example (since I work in that arena)...

A 5KW radio station in (again New York City) would reach well over a million people. Our station (in Northeast KY) wont reach but a tenth of that. The NY station can base their rates on coverage and charge accordingly (you are going to reach a broader audience) and so absorb the costs that a smaller station like the one I work at cant. Twelve percent is a big cut when you cant cover that back in sales. While the bigger station gets more taken out, they have more coming in to cover that 12% cut that ASCAP, BMI and the others take.

BnB
 
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The exclusive right granted in section 106(4) for a musical work is the right "to perform the copyrighted work publically."

Under the definitions in section 101 of the Act, "To perform or display a work “publicly” means ... to perform ... it at a place open to the public or at any place where a substantial number of persons outside of a normal circle of a family and its social acquaintances is gathered."

I've always read these provisions to mean that a performance at a wedding or private party is not a public performance subject to the exclusive rights granted by the Act, but I've never specfically researched whether those provisions have been litigated in that context. I'd be curious to get @Music Attorney's take on that question.

The answer is that I don’t know whether those events have been litigated as to a public performance right, but my understanding as to weddings is the same as yours. It’s very often the case with legislation that it’s simply impossible to draft every possible exception to a rule. In those instances, Congress uses more general language that is meant to convey some specificity as well as the “spirit of the law.” From there, litigation ensues to determine whether the facts and circumstances of any particular situation fall inside or outside the intent of the Congressional language. In that regard, my general understanding is that birthday parties, anniversaries, and other events that are invitation only and not open to the public and not for profit would be considered private. Even if a PRO could make the argument that weddings, anniversaries, etc. were public performances, would they? Not particularly good optics, imo.

Similarly, I don’t see PROs going up to a traditional tailgate party outside the stadium on game day to extract a fee. On the other hand, if some event organizer put together a “for profit” tailgate party where admission was charged, then a PRO might very well go knocking on that door. Now change the “for profit” tailgate party to one that’s using the money for school needs. I don’t know on that one.

Again, there would be no way to know the outcome because the facts and circumstances of each case are different and nothing definitive can be ascertained until the people in the jury box or the person in the black robe makes a decision. However, that decision would only apply to those facts and circumstances. If you start over with a slightly different tailgate party event, then you have to start the whole process all over again.

Does that help your curiosity?


As a side note, and with apologies in advance for hijacking your post, it got me thinking about something in connection with another post in this thread.

A bit of background. Some clown in another post asked me a series of questions and because I gave him a “significant response” to one and ignored others (which I didn’t do – I simply said the answers were readily available online) it set off his “BS detector”. My failure to respond apparently constituted some kind of confirmation of something. And the fact that I specifically didn’t answer one question about massive bias must have been because I wouldn’t be able to answer the question without making ASCAP/BMI look bad.

One question I suggested he research himself was: “So how many of these performing rights organisations does a bar need to pay off to be allowed to have music performed in their venue?”. Following my own advice, I Googled “How many performing rights organizations does a bar need to pay to license music” and one of the first referenced links said this: “In a perfect world, you’d pay one PRO. But music licensing is…complicated (that’s why a chat with your lawyer is important). The major PROs are BMI, SESAC, GMR, and ASCAP. Each PRO represents different artists. Some bars pay all 4 PROs for music licensing, others opt to pay a couple. Each PRO has an online database so you can see which artists are represented.”

Other than the reference to artists, it seemed like a pretty good answer, but what do I know. And now on to the reason for the hijack and why your post inspired it.

Another question from the poster was “Or is the law as currently set up massively biased towards ASCAP/BMI?” Apart from the fact that I wasn’t clear on the specific law or laws he was referring to and I wasn’t clear on what he meant by massively biased towards ASCAP/BMI, it didn’t seem like a particularly constructive use of my time. Hiding is so much easier and enjoyable and gives the other side a sense of victory.

But then you had to go and say this:

"The exclusive right granted in section 106(4) for a musical work is the right "to perform the copyrighted work publically." Under the definitions in section 101 of the Act, "To Perform or display a work “publicly” means ... to perform ... it at a place open to the public or at any place where a substantial number of persons outside of a normal circle of a family and its social acquaintances is gathered."

That info made me wonder whether potential massive bias towards the PROs could be found in that law. It’s a very simple, but powerful proposition: songwriters (or companies they designate like ASCAP) have the exclusive right to decide whether permission is granted to perform musical compositions publicly and under what terms. Assuming there is agreement that creators should have this exclusive right, then creators get to do whatever they want with their songs in terms of public performances, subject to whatever limitations may exist on that exclusive right (e.g., fair use). That would include having the right to assign or license some or all of their rights to someone else. One of those assignable rights would include the right to have a third party like ASCAP or BMI act as your agent in terms of the collection, licensing, enforcement, and pricing, of the public performance right.

Clearly, the US Congress must have given songwriters and publishers all that power based on some serious backroom deals and political hijinks. Surely, they couldn’t have just intended something as simple as a creator being able to control the public performance of their musical work. And there’s no way they were just fulfilling their constitutionally mandated duty “To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries." Nope, it had to be something more nefarious.

And then I found it. It was in 1897 when the US Congress extended the exclusive right of public performance to musical works for the first time. Although ASCAP would not be founded until nearly 20 years later, they must have known the primitive environment of those times would make collection, licensing, enforcement, etc. extremely difficult and that some enterprising individual (e.g., Victor August Herbert) would come along and use this massively biased law to their advantage and be first to market with a product and service that helped mitigate some of the difficulties faced by songwriters and publishers in that environment.

As if that wasn't favorable enough to ASCAP (and BMI which didn’t come along until 1939), the Supreme Court of the United States decided to get involved and provide further bias and favoritism on a massive scale. The Supreme Court was presented with 2 cases which they combined because they both presented the same question: whether the performance of a copyrighted musical composition in a restaurant or hotel without charge for admission to hear it infringes the exclusive right of the owner of the copyright to perform the work publicly for profit. And here is what the Supremes concluded:

“If the rights under the copyright are infringed only by a performance where money is taken at the door they are very imperfectly protected. Performances not different in kind from those of the defendants could be given that might compete with and even destroy the success of the monopoly that the law intends the plaintiffs to have. It is enough to say that there is no need to construe the statute so narrowly. The defendants' performances are not eleemosynary. They are part of a total for which the public pays, and the fact that the price of the whole is attributed to a particular item which those present are expected to order, is not important. It is true that the music is not the sole object, but neither is the food, which probably could be got cheaper elsewhere. The object is a repast in surroundings that to people having limited powers of conversation or disliking the rival noise give a luxurious pleasure not to be had from eating a silent meal. If music did not pay it would be given up. If it pays it pays out of the public's pocket. Whether it pays or not the purpose of employing it is profit and that is enough.”

So how do we really know the Supreme Court was biased and wanted to set up the law in favor of ASCAP (and BMI which did not exist) so ASCAP (and eventually BMI) could set up service models for songwriters? It’s simple. The Supreme Court frequently decides in favor or against a law on a 5-4 basis based on ideological lines. However, in this case, the court was unanimous and that almost never happens. Surely there was influence of some kind to secure a 9-0 vote in favor of songwriters and publishers.

As a side note, the language from the Court’s opinion quoted above was delivered in 1916 by Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, who is widely regarded as one of the towering legal figures in US history, but, unfortunately, not someone who was without bias or favor.
 
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