AudioKinesis 112 Cab

[Handyman]

+1 The little 112 takes quite a bit of power to get up to full volume, and I assume the 115 will be the same way, but will be more full and loud in an absolute sense.

It should work great with the Walkabout, but probably still not as loud as a high quality, higher sensitivity 410 with that wattage input.

The smaller size, great low end extension with somewhat lower sensitivity seems to make lots of sense these days. Watts have gotten small and cheap, and no one like carting around a bulky heavy cab.

I'm really interested in hearing reviews of the upcoming 212 and 115. How are these two going to compare to each other?

 

[KJung]

The smaller size, great low end extension with somewhat lower sensitivity seems to make lots of sense these days. Watts have gotten small and cheap, and no one like carting around a bulky heavy cab.

I'm really interested in hearing reviews of the upcoming 212 and 115. How are these two going to compare to each other?

+1 Actually, watts are getting so cheap, and more and more companies are putting out very high wattage micro's, that impedance issues are eventually going to be a thing of the past (i.e., we will all have enough watts to drive even a large, relatively low sensitivity cab to full power with a micro). IMO, that day is not hear yet (in general), so Duke's slightly higher tuning and 4ohms really does deliver the magical 'low, loud AND small' to those of us using the typical 500 watt or so into 4ohms micro.

The first thing I will do is post up pictures and clips of the TC112 and 115 side by side in a few months when the 115 starts to ship!

 

[Chef]

I think "that day will be here" after namm; at least from some folks.

 

[KJung]

I think "that day will be here" after namm; at least from some folks.

+1 There is still a rather limited number of micro's that really kick out the wump at 8ohms. That is changing (the Markbass LM800 and SD1200, the Shuttle Max 9 and Streamliner, the GK MB800, etc.), and from the pre announcements I've seen, not surprisingly there are a few more 700 watt+ into 4ohm micro's coming out that would have enough wump at 8ohms to push one of these LF loaded cabs up to volume.

 

[Passinwind]

+1 There is still a rather limited number of micro's that really kick out the wump at 8ohms. That is changing (the Markbass LM800 and SD1200, the Shuttle Max 9 and Streamliner, the GK MB800, etc.), and from the pre announcements I've seen, not surprisingly there are a few more 700 watt+ into 4ohm micro's coming out that would have enough wump at 8ohms to push one of these LF loaded cabs up to volume.

The 1000 watt (at 4ohm) IcePower module makes more than enough stick at 8 ohm to really light up even the stock LF drivers, in my experience. I've been using mine for a few years now with nary a problem, dunno why manufacturers have been dragging their feet.

 

[KJung]

The 1000 watt (at 4ohm) IcePower module makes more than enough stick at 8 ohm to really light up even the stock LF drivers, in my experience. I've been using mine for a few years now with nary a problem, dunno why manufacturers have been dragging their feet.

I assume it is a combination of pricepoint, demand and size. I believe TecAmp is using the newest IcePower 1000 watt module in their updated Puma1000, but they had to significantly increase the size of the box.

Of course, that will all change as time marches on. However, since most small cabs are fine with 300 or so watts, and most large cabs are relatively high sensitivity and 4ohm, my guess is, there hasn't been a ton of motivation to increase the price point and possibly size of the unit relative to the demand beyond the impressive 500 watt units that are out there now.

IMO there.

 

[SG-Jazz]

All I know is that I cant wait for my TC112 to ship! so I can and then

 

[Passinwind]

I assume it is a combination of pricepoint, demand and size. I believe TecAmp is using the newest IcePower 1000 watt module in their updated Puma1000, but they had to significantly increase the size of the box.

Yeah...it's a whopping 5" X 9", power supply included.

Of course, that will all change as time marches on.

Yep, and none of those guys are likely to see any of my money anyhow...

 

[KJung]

Yeah...it's a whopping 5" X 9", power supply included.

Of course, that will all change as time marches on.

Yep, and none of those guys are likely to see any of my money anyhow...

Yes, bigger footprint than most micro's, which is an issue for many who gig a lot and freelance.... small size, moderate price, and double the power most would ever need versus larger size, twice the price and 4 times the power that most would ever need!

And yes, you are not in the target market for most products that most players are interested in

 

[Passinwind]

Yes, bigger footprint than most micro's, which is an issue for many who gig a lot and freelance.... small size and double the power you would ever need versus larger size, twice the price and 4 times the power that most would ever need!

And yes, you are not in the target market for most products that most players are interested in

Nope, and most likely neither are you Ken! I know maybe two or three freelancers like you out here, out of literally thousands of bass players I've mixed or done repairs for. But somehow, lots of people still seem to listen to us...

 

[KJung]

Nope, and most likely neither are you Ken! I know maybe two or three freelancers like you out here, out of literally thousands of bass players I've mixed or done repairs for. But somehow, lots of people still seem to listen to us...

+1 It is amazing how 'in a silo' everyone is regarding playing styles. We all hang with the players that are most like us (in my case, mostly guys making a living from music who read, are mostly formally trained, and who play a wide variety of styles as hired guns). I never see the bar players or the hard rock guys, or whatever. We are all in our own world.

That is why, IMO, it is SO important (at least for those of us who post a lot) to be VERY clear about our tone goals, playing styles, gigging contexts, etc., or all the blah blah blah is pretty useless.

My comment regarding you 'not being in the market' relates more to your building your own stuff versus playing style or whatever

 

[Passinwind]

+1 It is amazing how 'in a silo' everyone is regarding playing styles. We all hang with the players that are most like us (in my case, mostly guys making a living from music who read, are mostly formally trained, and who play a wide variety of styles as hired guns). I never see the bar players or the hard rock guys, or whatever. We are all in our own world.

My comment regarding you 'not being in the market' relates more to your building your own stuff versus playing style or whatever

I knew just what you meant.

It's maybe even more interesting to me how so many of us converge on the same targets, regardless of where we're coming from. At our last GTG there were guys trying 50 watt tube amps through the Thunderchild, and me running a 1000 watt plate amp into it. And of course, lots of guys doing just what you're talking about, mini-amps in the 300 to 500 watt range, which certainly seems like the sweet spot in the current market to me.

Again, kudos to Duke for building something I actually want to buy, even in today's sometimes tough market conditions.

 

[KJung]

I knew just what you meant.

It's maybe even more interesting to me how so many of us converge on the same targets, regardless of where we're coming from. At our last GTG there were guys trying 50 watt tube amps through the Thunderchild, and me running a 1000 watt plate amp into it. And of course, lots of guys doing just what you're talking about, mini-amps in the 300 to 500 watt range, which certainly seems like the sweet spot in the current market to me.

Again, kudos to Duke for building something I actually want to buy, even in today's sometimes tough market conditions.

+1 One of my favorite GTG moments was one we did in Western Michigan a while back. We all showed up, and most of us had our fancy schmancy basses and little solid state heads and IP's and Walter Woods, etc., etc.

There was a guy there (nice cat.... used to be on TB... forgot his name) who showed up with this MASSIVE Peavey tube amp... this 400 watt, 80+ pound monster. It was in a road case, and he used a Berg HT112 (one of the smaller 112's on the market) that he sat ON TOP of the head We all just kind of stared at it! Actually sounded killer, but talk about 'one of these was not like the other one'

 

[Chef]

Peavey Classic 400.
Great head.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

If this is as tight in the low end as the TC112, but more absolute SPL (approaching a good 2x12)....

My target for the low end of the 15 is duplicating that of the 12, as several people have suggested. It won't be an exact duplication, but will be very close.

Compared to a pair of Deltalite 12's, my 15 will be slightly higher in efficiency (based on the T/S parameters), slightly lower in thermal power handling, and considerably higher in mechanical power handling. However since I EQ away midrange bumpage in the crossover, my 15 may well sound a bit less efficient than a typical good 2x12.

 

[Jazzdogg]

+1 It is amazing how 'in a silo' everyone is regarding playing styles. We all hang with the players that are most like us (in my case, mostly guys making a living from music who read, are mostly formally trained, and who play a wide variety of styles as hired guns). I never see the bar players or the hard rock guys, or whatever. We are all in our own world.

That is why, IMO, it is SO important (at least for those of us who post a lot) to be VERY clear about our tone goals, playing styles, gigging contexts, etc., or all the blah blah blah is pretty useless.

My comment regarding you 'not being in the market' relates more to your building your own stuff versus playing style or whatever

Excellent points!

 

[John D Harris]

My target for the low end of the 15 is duplicating that of the 12, as several people have suggested. It won't be an exact duplication, but will be very close.

Compared to a pair of Deltalite 12's, my 15 will be slightly higher in efficiency (based on the T/S parameters), slightly lower in thermal power handling, and considerably higher in mechanical power handling. However since I EQ away midrange bumpage in the crossover, my 15 may well sound a bit less efficient than a typical good 2x12.

Interesting! I think you're targeting the sweet-spot for a lot of players.

Looking forward to hearing comparisons between your forth-coming 2x12 and 1x15.
I'm guessing that you're targeting slightly different clients with these two?

 

[KJung]

Interesting! I think you're targeting the sweet-spot for a lot of players.

Looking forward to hearing comparisons between your forth-coming 2x12 and 1x15.
I'm guessing that you're targeting slightly different clients with these two?

+1 all the way.

Regarding the 212 cab, I've played quite a few 2 x 3012LF cabs using the stock LF drivers, and they are a different beast, with the ones I've played being quite large physically (even compared to most other 212's), deeply voiced with a much higher ratio of deep bass to upper bass than the TC112 (and I assume the upcoming TC115), and a bit power hungry. Really nice for a more (what I call) Anthony Jackson sort of thing... super wide and, with Duke's horn, super clear with very little distortion or 'cone break-up' at all (due to the much lower crossover point that these drivers require versus the HO models, or the custom LF's that Duke uses in the TC112 (and 115). Not my thing, but for those looking for a big low end and a very 'smooth' tone profile, they kill, and I assume Duke's will be at the top end of the 'kill continuum'

 

[rpsands]

Regarding cheap watts: No matter how cheap watts get, unless things change significantly there is rarely if ever any reason to be hitting a single woofer with more than 500 watts sustained. Voice coils of current drivers will melt.

Not only is there diminishing returns (going from 500 to 1000 watts only adds 3db) but power compression sucks some of that 3db away. Combine that with the limitation to how many watts you can get out of a 15 amp breaker (somewhere around 1400?) and there are some real limitations to, at least at this time, how much cheap watts really help a low sensitivity speaker.

All that said the thrust of what I'm saying is that this rhetoric about the TC being "lower sensitivity" is rubbish. The 12 that Duke uses is comparable to any single 12 used elsewhere in the industry except up top. He's not really sacrificing that much sensitivity for the low end.

If Duke ran the 12 he uses full range it'd probably be pretty darned close to as loud as a deltalite. He scalps the breakup modes off for fun and profit...but that isn't sacrificing true sensitivity.

* IF you want an example of something that does seriously sacrifice sensitivity for low end extension look at the Acme. Duke's woofer sacrifices a small amount of sensitivity for excursion more than low end extension. But he starts with a woofer that is better than anyone else in the industry is using (the kappalite) - so he has a leg up on all those deltalite users already.

 

[KJung]

Regarding cheap watts: No matter how cheap watts get, unless things change significantly there is rarely if ever any reason to be hitting a single woofer with more than 500 watts sustained. Voice coils of current drivers will melt.

Not only is there diminishing returns (going from 500 to 1000 watts only adds 3db) but power compression sucks some of that 3db away. Combine that with the limitation to how many watts you can get out of a 15 amp breaker (somewhere around 1400?) and there are some real limitations to, at least at this time, how much cheap watts really help a low sensitivity speaker.

All that said the thrust of what I'm saying is that this rhetoric about the TC being "lower sensitivity" is rubbish. The 12 that Duke uses is comparable to any single 12 used elsewhere in the industry except up top. He's not really sacrificing that much sensitivity for the low end.

If Duke ran the 12 he uses full range it'd probably be pretty darned close to as loud as a deltalite. He scalps the breakup modes off for fun and profit...but that isn't sacrificing true sensitivity.

Our discussion about power more had to do with large cabs that are 8ohms. It is hard to get 500 watts into 8ohms right now with lightweight heads (there are a few, but not that many). And, with two large 8ohm cabs, 1000 watts at 4ohms is not really out of the questions.

Also, IMO again, for whatever reason, Duke's little 112 takes a LOT more power to sound as loud as a more 'typical' cab. I assume that is a combination of the design of the driver, the tuning, and as you point out, the very even, non peaky mid response. However, again, at 4ohms, I feel my 500 watt into 4ohms head pushes it to full performance, even though I've never had the master knob as high with any other cab, even my big 410's on large outside gigs. Sounds great though, but IMO that 500 or so watts is perfect for this cab (and that is literally the spec that Duke designed to).