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AudioKinesis 112 Cab

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#801
rpsands said:
Regarding cheap watts: No matter how cheap watts get, unless things change significantly there is rarely if ever any reason to be hitting a single woofer with more than 500 watts sustained. Voice coils of current drivers will melt.

Not only is there diminishing returns (going from 500 to 1000 watts only adds 3db) but power compression sucks some of that 3db away. Combine that with the limitation to how many watts you can get out of a 15 amp breaker (somewhere around 1400?) and there are some real limitations to, at least at this time, how much cheap watts really help a low sensitivity speaker.

All that said the thrust of what I'm saying is that this rhetoric about the TC being "lower sensitivity" is rubbish. The 12 that Duke uses is comparable to any single 12 used elsewhere in the industry except up top. He's not really sacrificing that much sensitivity for the low end.

If Duke ran the 12 he uses full range it'd probably be pretty darned close to as loud as a deltalite. He scalps the breakup modes off for fun and profit...but that isn't sacrificing true sensitivity.

* IF you want an example of something that does seriously sacrifice sensitivity for low end extension look at the Acme. Duke's woofer sacrifices a small amount of sensitivity for excursion more than low end extension. But he starts with a woofer that is better than anyone else in the industry is using (the kappalite) - so he has a leg up on all those deltalite users already.
Click to expand...

To each his own...

Yeah, very few people are going to be running sustained 500W into a bass cab.

But OTOH, I'll take every watt I can squeeze out of that 15A outlet.
I play with a very light touch -- the result of that on my system is that I have a lower signal going into the amp to start with, which means I need more watts to get that lower signal up to a decent level (also, I may or may not have PA support for FOH).
 
#802
lo-freq said:
To each his own...

Yeah, very few people are going to be running sustained 500W into a bass cab.

But OTOH, I'll take every watt I can squeeze out of that 15A outlet.
I play with a very light touch -- the result of that on my system is that I have a lower signal going into the amp to start with, which means I need more watts to get that lower signal up to a decent level (also, I may or may not have PA support for FOH).
Click to expand...

This is just misunderstanding. You do not need more watts to get the lower signal up to decent level. Watts are watts.

What you need is more voltage from your preamp but the power demands for that are negligible.
 
#803
rpsands said:
This is just misunderstanding. You do not need more watts to get the lower signal up to decent level. Watts are watts.

What you need is more voltage from your preamp but the power demands for that are negligible.
Click to expand...

Probably depends on the preamp circuitry (S/N ratio at a given gain level).

I run my Yamie PB-1 at about 11o'clock, my CP2000 (bridged = 1400W @ 8ohm) at about 2 to 3o'clock, and my StingRay 5 volume maxed (except with using a pick).

If I set the PB-1 much higher, it gets noisier.
 
#804
rpsands said:
Regarding cheap watts: No matter how cheap watts get, unless things change significantly there is rarely if ever any reason to be hitting a single woofer with more than 500 watts sustained. Voice coils of current drivers will melt.

Not only is there diminishing returns (going from 500 to 1000 watts only adds 3db) but power compression sucks some of that 3db away. Combine that with the limitation to how many watts you can get out of a 15 amp breaker (somewhere around 1400?) and there are some real limitations to, at least at this time, how much cheap watts really help a low sensitivity speaker.
Click to expand...

These are good points and are rarely addressed on TB as folks rush to embrace the newer generation of affordable megawatt amps. I'd bet some players here might have experienced their band's gear asking more than the house circuits can provide. I'm talking the gigs at Joe's Tavern level, not the bigger corporate gigs.
 
#805
koobie said:
These are good points and are rarely addressed on TB as folks rush to embrace the newer generation of affordable megawatt amps. I'd bet some players here might have experienced their band's gear asking more than the house circuits can provide. I'm talking the gigs at Joe's Tavern level, not the bigger corporate gigs.
Click to expand...

Most likely not. Class D amps are so efficient that this is another issue that is not really an issue any more.

Again, I think some are missing the point here. A higher wattage amp is not about 'volume' (although the 'double the wattage gets you only 3db minimizes the impact by only looking at volume anyway). It is all about having the power to deal with any combination of cabs, impedance, sensitivity, etc., etc. The volume control can turn a 1000 watt amp into a low volume solution easily, and again with the efficiency of class D, the power usage of a 1000 watt amp today is probably less than some 500 watt executions back in the day.

To be clear, I have no interest and no need for anything more than 500 honest watts for my cabs and volume needs (i.e., my 500 watt amps can drive my 4ohm cabs to pretty much full performance). However, for the guys who really cranke the stage volume and use multiple 410's or whatever, it is nice to have the option to put a good wallup of watts into both a large 8ohm cab (especially one that is relatively low sensitivity) or two 8ohm cabs.

In the meantime, Duke's combination of small boxes, moderate sensitivity but 4ohm impedance, and those wonderful modified LF drivers that seems to sit halfway between the HO and LF models is a godsend.

I just read that Eminence introduced the 3010LF at NAMM.... so we might see some 4ohm 210 executions coming down the line!
 
#806
rpsands said:
This is just misunderstanding. You do not need more watts to get the lower signal up to decent level. Watts are watts.

What you need is more voltage from your preamp but the power demands for that are negligible.
Click to expand...

I'll give you a couple of for-instances: I played a club where we shared the stage with a band that we know and I used the other bass players rig (GK RB1001* and 4x10/1x15 stack -- should have been loud as heck). I had to crank the amp up to 95% of available gain/master to get a decent level; my EA iAmp-600 is the same situation -- 95% of both gain/master to get sort-of loud.
If I switch to using a pick I have to reduce the level (usually do it at my bass guitar) by about 3/4.
These are both using the passive inputs.
 
#807
That's entirely a gain staging issue not a power amp watts issue.

Use the passive input with an active bass, use a boost pedal, etc.

The EA amps have notoriously weak input stages too -- it's common to still have headroom when you've got the input cranked with a low output bass, much less if you have a light touch.
 
#809
rpsands said:
That's entirely a gain staging issue not a power amp watts issue.

Use the passive input with an active bass, use a boost pedal, etc.

The EA amps have notoriously weak input stages too -- it's common to still have headroom when you've got the input cranked with a low output bass, much less if you have a light touch.
Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying.
I always use passive input and an active bass.
I have tried a couple of boost pedals, but I'd rather just have more Watts on tap than more stuff to carry and hook-up -- as I said initially, 'to each his own'.
 
#810
lo-freq said:
I understand what you're saying.
I always use passive input and an active bass.
I have tried a couple of boost pedals, but I'd rather just have more Watts on tap than more stuff to carry and hook-up -- as I said initially, 'to each his own'.
Click to expand...

Meh, as long as you're happy that's great. Lots of risks associated with using lots of watts on tap to make up for insufficient gain though.
 
#813
babebambi said:
I feel the same way too.
But I couldn't quite put my finger on exactly what it is ...
can you give an example
Click to expand...

Baddest experience I encountered along those lines was as follows: I use my right hand (mainly the thumb area of my right palm) to mute the lower strings when playing.
Once while getting into a difficult passage while the adrenaline was flowing, I put enough pressure on my 'B' string to bring it in contact with a pole piece on the pickup.
At the time I was playing a Demeter VTBP-201S into a bridged QSC PLX1602 set on full gain and a 4 ohm cab.

This did not result in a pleasant sound and I'm pretty sure it did result in blowing my tweeter.

So RPSands is correct, definite risks are involved when big amps are cranked.
 
#814
KJung said:
I just read that Eminence introduced the 3010LF at NAMM.... so we might see some 4ohm 210 executions coming down the line!
Click to expand...

No promises, but there's a reasonable chance yours truly might do something with the 3010LF at some point.

Actually the first place I'd probably use the 3010LF is in a home audio speaker of mine. I've been looking for a good 10" woofer for a while now, and if the 3010LF follows in the footsteps of the 3012LF, then it may well be exactly what I'm looking for. While working on that project I'd also play around with possible bass cab applications.
 
#815
DukeLeJeune said:
No promises, but there's a reasonable chance yours truly might do something with the 3010LF at some point.

Actually the first place I'd probably use the 3010LF is in a home audio speaker of mine. I've been looking for a good 10" woofer for a while now, and if the 3010LF follows in the footsteps of the 3012LF, then it may well be exactly what I'm looking for. While working on that project I'd also play around with possible bass cab applications.
Click to expand...

If you do, I'd like to have dibs on the prototype if you do it in white like the TC....:D
 
#816
I decided to scrap my custom 2x12 idea for the moment and placed on order with duke for a thunderchild last week. Im wondering if it would sound good with my vintage svt since you can seal the cab and it has the high frequency roll-off switch. Im pretty excited.
 
#819
Adding to my earlier comments Tuki's great cover for the Thunderchild, I mailed my check for a second T-Child cover last Thursday, January 13, and received it Friday, January 21. Fantastic service as always!
 
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