AudioKinesis Cabs Part VI...

[Frank77]

Ah, decisions, decisions...

So far I'm leaning towards getting a Changeling 212 (@DukeLeJeune, if the Hathor 212 is 43 lbs, am I right to assume the Changeling version is about 45-ish lbs?)...

...mostly because my main band is an 8-piece with horns and a loud drummer, and I would only use this cab when gigging larger venues (I already have a smaller cab for home practice/coffee shop type "acoustic" gigs and our rehearsal space is a rent-by-the-hour place that is fully equipped).

On the flipside, I'm wondering if I'm not overreacting a bit to the lack of firepower of my current setup for this band (shown below - No, I don't play a giant bass, these are 5'' drivers! 350W in this config according to spec sheets).

20171027_181143

• Frank77
• Nov 14, 2017
• gig report halloween party

I doubt a single 12'' would be enough but who knows, it might already be louder than what I'm running now (would it?). The new setup will be driven by a Quilter Bass Block 800, so a 2x12'' would be a significant bump both in terms of watts and surface area. I've never had this much oooommpff on tap, so I'm trying to be careful.

More questions:

Aside from the obvious facts that the 212 is a bigger box to carry and that a pair of 1203s is conveniently modular (but a bit more expensive), any pros/cons of 2x1203s vs 1x212 ? Is the 212 a fairly easy carry, or is it a weird lift? If you went the 2x1203s route, would you go regular/regular, tall/regular, or tall/tall, and why? And finally, a noob question: I've never worked with pluggable ports...what is the preferred methodology to tune your cab(s)? Start with all ports open then gradually plug them to reduce "boom" if needed?

Any input/suggestions/words of wisdom welcome!

Frank

 

[Lowendtech]

Ah, decisions, decisions...

So far I'm leaning towards getting a Changeling 212 (@DukeLeJeune, if the Hathor 212 is 43 lbs, am I right to assume the Changeling version is about 45-ish lbs?)...

...mostly because my main band is an 8-piece with horns and a loud drummer, and I would only use this cab when gigging larger venues (I already have a smaller cab for home practice/coffee shop type "acoustic" gigs and our rehearsal space is a rent-by-the-hour place that is fully equipped).

On the flipside, I'm wondering if I'm not overreacting a bit to the lack of firepower of my current setup for this band (shown below - No, I don't play a giant bass, these are 5'' drivers! 350W in this config according to spec sheets).

20171027_181143

• Frank77
• Nov 14, 2017
• gig report halloween party

I doubt a single 12'' would be enough but who knows, it might already be louder than what I'm running now (would it?). The new setup will be driven by a Quilter Bass Block 800, so a 2x12'' would be a significant bump both in terms of watts and surface area. I've never had this much oooommpff on tap, so I'm trying to be careful.

More questions:

Aside from the obvious facts that the 212 is a bigger box to carry and that a pair of 1203s is conveniently modular (but a bit more expensive), any pros/cons of 2x1203s vs 1x212 ? Is the 212 a fairly easy carry, or is it a weird lift? If you went the 2x1203s route, would you go regular/regular, tall/regular, or tall/tall, and why? And finally, a noob question: I've never worked with pluggable ports...what is the preferred methodology to tune your cab(s)? Start with all ports open then gradually plug them to reduce "boom" if needed?

Any input/suggestions/words of wisdom welcome!

Frank

I feel your Dali Lama.
I struggled for more than a month on which way to go.
Went 1533. I also have a BB800 and D800+ but wanted to be able to put a tube amp on top so went with a bigger footprint.


So is are the Changeling cabs still considered Hathor’s?
I’ve ordered myself a Changeling 1533T and keep wanting to call it a Hathor.
C1533T or H1533CT? To all in the know.

 

[Al Kraft]

Any input/suggestions/words of wisdom welcome!

While I can't offer a comparison to the gear you have now, I will say that when I was testing the C112T it was capable of covering what I would traditionally have used a 212 for. If you choose a Hathor 1203 model, I'd personally recommend the T version - I think the extra internal volume is quite helpful for bringing out the low end a little more powerfully.

As for how deep and powerful a flock of 5 inch speakers can sound, one only has to look to the Phil Jones Bass products to see how an initial impression often leads us to a wrong conclusion. The not judging a book by its cover saying comes to mind for PJB gear, and AudioKinesis for that matter.

 

[TomB]

Ah, decisions, decisions...

So far I'm leaning towards getting a Changeling 212 (@DukeLeJeune, if the Hathor 212 is 43 lbs, am I right to assume the Changeling version is about 45-ish lbs?)...
...
Aside from the obvious facts that the 212 is a bigger box to carry and that a pair of 1203s is conveniently modular (but a bit more expensive), any pros/cons of 2x1203s vs 1x212 ? Is the 212 a fairly easy carry, or is it a weird lift? If you went the 2x1203s route, would you go regular/regular, tall/regular, or tall/tall, and why? And finally, a noob question: I've never worked with pluggable ports...what is the preferred methodology to tune your cab(s)? Start with all ports open then gradually plug them to reduce "boom" if needed?

Any input/suggestions/words of wisdom welcome!

Frank

To address your last question: Yes, that's the way I have used the port plugs. Some prefer to keep one in, then add or subtract based on the room. ...either way works fine.

 

[Al Kraft]

To address your last question: Yes, that's the way I have used the port plugs. Some prefer to keep one in, then add or subtract based on the room. ...either way works fine.

I personally liked two plugs open and two plugged for most things, but had all open for a rock gig and all sealed for an acoustic gig...if there's a bad combination, I couldn't find it!

 

[TomB]

I personally liked two plugs open and two plugged for most things, but had all open for a rock gig and all sealed for an acoustic gig...if there's a bad combination, I couldn't find it!

Agreed. I said "one" thinking of the 112 cabs that have only two ports. My 115 has four ports. In any case, other than choosing the configuration that gives the best air flow to the woofer, the choice is yours and experimentation is the answer. I believe Duke has covered the air flow question elsewhere in this thread.

 

[steubig]

Aside from the obvious facts that the 212 is a bigger box to carry and that a pair of 1203s is conveniently modular (but a bit more expensive), any pros/cons of 2x1203s vs 1x212 ?

my pov: two of the 1203. possibly easier schlep, more modular as you could go one or two (and if you dig the ak vibe, you can possibly get rid of your other stuff and have a consistent sound through your setups)

 

[Al Kraft]

Agreed. I said "one" thinking of the 112 cabs that have only two ports. My 115 has four ports. In any case, other than choosing the configuration that gives the best air flow to the woofer, the choice is yours and experimentation is the answer. I believe Duke has covered the air flow question elsewhere in this thread.

That's was one of the coolest things about the C112T I tested. Having options between totally sealed and 4 ports really offered a lot of voicing versatility. This particular AK feature (whether one, two, three or more ports) impressed me as having a lot of utility, in fact even more than I had thought it would when I first got the cab.

 

[Frank77]

While I can't offer a comparison to the gear you have now, I will say that when I was testing the C112T it was capable of covering what I would traditionally have used a 212 for. If you choose a Hathor 1203 model, I'd personally recommend the T version - I think the extra internal volume is quite helpful for bringing out the low end a little more powerfully.

As for how deep and powerful a flock of 5 inch speakers can sound, one only has to look to the Phil Jones Bass products to see how an initial impression often leads us to a wrong conclusion. The not judging a book by its cover saying comes to mind for PJB gear, and AudioKinesis for that matter.

The PJB stuff I have sounds great, but whenever I step out of a quiet-ish context or on a larger stage, it's getting lost. It's fine with a jazz trio or quartet (w/ brushed drums), even in a large room and even with the fairly low output of an upright piezo, or with a rock band in a very small room, but in a funk band with loud drums, keys, a guitar and 3 horns, I have to wring it out all the time. I don't know if it's strictly a matter of wattage, surface area, dispersion, or a combination of all this, but it's not giving me the results I want for "louder" genres. The Suitcase is also a very awkward lift (because of the way it balances? location of the handles? I don't know but it feels twice as heavy as it really is!)...so after gigging this setup for 5 years I've decided to "upgrade" to the flexibility of a head + cab(s) setup. I'm still keeping it, though (at least for now). I haven't found a way to make my upright sound as good with the new amp.

 

[Frank77]

my pov: two of the 1203. possibly easier schlep, more modular as you could go one or two (and if you dig the ak vibe, you can possibly get rid of your other stuff and have a consistent sound through your setups)

Fact: If someday, somehow I sell my other rig, I'll be kicking myself in the head if I only have one large cab instead of two smaller ones.

 

[TrentB]

I went with the Hathor 212 because I didn’t think a single 12 would ever be enough for me in a loud rock band. This is actually my little rig but it kicks serious butt! If you play shows where a single 12 would be enough then I would go with 2 1203’s for the modular aspect.

The PJB stuff I have sounds great, but whenever I step out of a quiet-ish context or on a larger stage, it's getting lost. It's fine with a jazz trio or quartet (w/ brushed drums), even in a large room and even with the fairly low output of an upright piezo, or with a rock band in a very small room, but in a funk band with loud drums, keys, a guitar and 3 horns, I have to wring it out all the time. I don't know if it's strictly a matter of wattage, surface area, dispersion, or a combination of all this, but it's not giving me the results I want for "louder" genres. The Suitcase is also a very awkward lift (because of the way it balances? location of the handles? I don't know but it feels twice as heavy as it really is!)...so after gigging this setup for 5 years I've decided to "upgrade" to the flexibility of a head + cab(s) setup. I'm still keeping it, though. Different tools for different jobs.

 

[srcTW]

A single 1203 is stupidly loud. Two stacked are crazy. One cuts easily through a 19 piece band and two is icing on the cake.

 

[Frank77]

I went with the Hathor 212 because I didn’t think a single 12 would ever be enough for me in a loud rock band. This is actually my little rig but it kicks serious butt! If you play shows where a single 12 would be enough then I would go with 2 1203’s for the modular aspect.
View attachment 2861656

Very nice!

How difficult is it for one guy to carry? Is there only a top handle or are there others on the sides? I've never seen a clear picture of the sides, it looks like there are recessed handles, but can't tell for sure.

How do you like the Quilter head with this cab? I'm looking at an almost *identical* setup.

Hard for me to say if I do gigs that a single 12'' could handle comfortably as I've never used one (which is why I'm still torn between options). My current rig delivers 350W through the same surface area as a 2x10'', and most of the time it's not enough. The single cab solution is more affordable...so if a 2x12 is the right answer 80% of the time, that might be the ticket for me (unless it's an impossible schlep).

 

[ahc]

My current rig delivers 350W through the same surface area as a 2x10'', and most of the time it's not enough.

Surface area alone is not the deciding factor. The Xmax of a speaker is. Xmax is the distance the speaker cone travels. The 3012LF Duke uses moves more air than a "standard" speaker. I think it can travel 6 or 7 mm while standard speakers move about 2 or 3 mm. Displacement of a speaker, or Vd, is is measured in cubic centimeters or inches. Not in square inches or centimeters. If I'm wrong about this, correction and chastisement are welcomed.

 

[TrentB]

Very nice!

How difficult is it for one guy to carry? Is there only a top handle or are there others on the sides? I've never seen a clear picture of the sides, it looks like there are recessed handles, but can't tell for sure.

How do you like the Quilter head with this cab? I'm looking at an almost *identical* setup.

Hard for me to say if I do gigs that a single 12'' could handle comfortably as I've never used one (which is why I'm still torn between options). My current rig delivers 350W through the same surface area as a 2x10'', and most of the time it's not enough. The single cab solution is more affordable...so if a 2x12 is the right answer 80% of the time, that might be the ticket for me (unless it's an impossible schlep).

It's easy to carry, but not a one hand carry. It's 43lbs. It's got recessed handles on the sides. It also has the handle on the top so you can move it around once you've got it back on the ground.

The Quilter is great with the cab. Tons of power and the cab never sweats. I run a VTDI in front of the Quilter to add some Ampeg flavor and more eq options. My main rig is an SVT so I try to emulate that with my little rig. The 212 would work for any of my gigs but I like to run my SVT and 610 for the looks and tone at my larger shows.

 

[mmbongo]

Surface area alone is not the deciding factor. The Xmax of a speaker is. Xmax is the distance the speaker cone travels. The 3012LF Duke uses moves more air than a "standard" speaker. I think it can travel 6 or 7 mm while standard speakers move about 2 or 3 mm. Displacement of a speaker, or Vd, is is measured in cubic centimeters or inches. Not in square inches or centimeters. If I'm wrong about this, correction and chastisement are welcomed.

The Xmax on the 3012LF is 9mm! By comparison the Deltalite 2512 which is industry standard is around 4mm.

 

[ahc]

The Xmax on the 3012LF is 9mm! By comparison the Deltalite 2512 which is industry standard is around 4mm.

Well, I was close.

 

[lomo]

Ah, decisions, decisions...

Frank, I haven't had time over the holidays to have a bass GTG chez-nous, but I have a neighbourly TB solution for you. Come pick up my 1203 and try it on a gig. Bring one of your PJB boxes just in case. Then you'll know for sure. I pm'ed you my phone number.

 

[nutdog]

Frank, I haven't had time over the holidays to have a bass GTG chez-nous, but I have a neighbourly TB solution for you. Come pick up my 1203 and try it on a gig. Bring one of your PJB boxes just in case. Then you'll know for sure. I pm'ed you my phone number.

Do this. Someone recently pm'd me about AK and was considering phil jones and asked me about it. I've only encountered one PJ in the wild and it left me underwhelmed and mathmatically I don't see how a 4x5 can compete with a 3012lf even if they have the same xmax, which is doubtful. We discussed the pros and cons but we looked at the AK user map and found something nearby for him to sample. After the meet, order placed.

 

[lomo]

Do this. Someone recently pm'd me about AK and was considering phil jones and asked me about it. I've only encountered one PJ in the wild and it left me underwhelmed and mathmatically I don't see how a 4x5 can compete with a 3012lf even if they have the same xmax, which is doubtful. We discussed the pros and cons but we looked at the AK user map and found something nearby for him to sample. After the meet, order placed.

It's in the works. I have owned/played the same stack Frank has years ago. I suspect one 1203 will be louder than all 8 of those 5" drivers....now he'll find out with no guesswork.....and then we can all hear Frank's impressions of the A/B comparison.