AudioKinesis Cabs Part VI...

[nostatic]

Just for fun, you might try running the 1203 stack with the port plugged on one cab. I liked some things about that configuration, and the woofers have enough x-max that I don't think you'll run into fartout. You might get a bit more thermal compression at the end of a set from the sealed cab, if you're pushing them hard. But if you have a few spare minutes next time you try 'em both in practice, give it a shot and see what you think.

I'll try that. I just did the blind taste test with my wife and she picked the 1203 with the Fodera, the Baer with the Rob Allen. But when I applied a bit of eq (add a bit of mid and high on Monique) the 1203 "woke up" and it became a toss-up - just different flavors of good. The 6" seems to give a bit more air and edge with the RA, while the 1203 is a hair smoother/sweeter (this is with both switches up). Just the fact that a small/light cab is in the same sonic ballpark is pretty amazing.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

You make a compelling case for a pair of 1203's. Would a Hathor 212 use a pair of 3's or 5" mid. Also, I know the 1855 goes really deep but does it punch as hard or have the mid presence of a 212? An 1855 Hathor with a Gallien Krueger MB Fusion 800 seems like it would be a real primal, raw meat, take no prisoners rig.

I'm leaning towards the pair of 3" mids for the 212. The 1855 uses two 5" mids, so it has enough upper-mid energy to get snarly, so I already have a snarly 4-ohm cab in that general performance category.

The 1855 punches in the same league a Kappalite 212. If it falls short it's not by much, which is in contrast with most of what I've read about cabs based on 18's. And it is probably the most mid-present of my cabs, as it uses two 5" mids in parallel. That strong mid-presence is now switch-off-able, by the way, at the suggestion of Tom Bowlus.

Is there anything to be gained if the 1203 covers the same range (bandwidth) as the 1263, and is more or less equally smooth, as the 1263? The 6 would have better dispersion than the 12. Would the 6 be a little more articulate in the mids than the 12 covering the same range? For 'big woofers', could a 6 be found that would have the right response peak to produce the desired growl for the cab?

The 3" Faital that I use in the Hathor 1203 is just barely loud enough. If I wasn't using that open-format mid-chamber and harvesting the backwave energy broadband, it probably wouldn't work. I figure I'm picking up about 1.5 dB from the backwave. So what a 6" mid would bring is, louder mids. And the 6" Faital mid that Roger uses would bring more top end too - it doesn't technically go higher than the 3" driver, but it has more energy in the 4-8 kHz octave. I really hate to "steal" the driver that Roger is using as a key element of his signature voicing; he's already told me he wouldn't mind, but still I hate to do it. And even though my 1855 uses the same 5" mid that Greenboy uses in his Fearless line, I figure that cross-firing a pair is different enough that it's okay.

So anyway what we'd get with a 5" or 6" mid is, more energy to work with, and I could use that to get more SPL here and there.

Now if the goal is smooth and articulate, well I'm already arguably doing okay there with my Thunderchild cabs. Once its response curve is beaten into shape, the 3012LF is a pretty good sounding woofer... I use it for high-end home audio, and have used it for custom studio monitors. Does that mean there's no room for improvement? Of course not, but it's less certain that such improvement would be cost-effective.

I haven't found a midrange driver that has exactly the response shape I like, so I have to throw some crossover parts at them. For instance the two 5" mids in the 1855 combined have plenty of output to do what I want, once I carve away what I don't want.

 

[bobcruz]

Steal away, Mr. LeJeune. Nobody has exclusive rights to use those drivers! And other designers are using your ideas. It's all good.

 

[astack]

 

[nostatic]

You make a compelling case for a pair of 1203's. Would a Hathor 212 use a pair of 3's or 5" mid. Also, I know the 1855 goes really deep but does it punch as hard or have the mid presence of a 212? An 1855 Hathor with a Gallien Krueger MB Fusion 800 seems like it would be a real primal, raw meat, take no prisoners rig.

The MB Fusion is a pretty aggressively voiced head. I have one as my backup amp and ran it the other day. I was reminded how different it is than Monique. Frankly I cannot tolerate the GK run flat with any of my cabs - just too much upper mids and highs. Makes my skin crawl. I back the treble off to about 9:00 and hi-mids to about 10:00. Then I can work with it. But even then there is an edge that sometimes I don't really dig. I think with more forgiving cabs (less articulate ones), it isn't as much of an issue.

 

[MarkA]

Duke, I appreciate how you, Mike, Roger and a couple of others compete honestly without cannibalizing each other. What I mean by that is that you actually ARE competing (and driving each other to improve), but you seem to be doing it with an eye toward maintaining the ongoing health and viability of this little market (not taking any shortcuts, ethically or in terms of quality, for short-term gain, and proceeding in a way that encourages meaningful innovation). Maybe I am idealizing the situation, but that's how it looks to me. Seems a difficult balance to strike; one that requires discernment and ongoing re-evaluation.

As to the 6" Faital, I happen to own a Dr. Bass cab, purchased here on TB back in 2010, that employs two Faital FH500 12s and a W6N8-120 (which, I believe, is the mid in question). The builder's well-documented unscrupulousness aside -- indeed, I apologize for mentioning him in the same post as you, Mike, Roger, et al. -- it's a nice enough cab, but I don't think that the simple inclusion of that particular driver makes it or Roger's design a "copy" of the other to any meaningful extent. The Dr. Bass cab was probably influenced by the fEarfuls and/or the vertically-stacked speaker-towers used by the Grateful Dead and/or any number of other things (there are a couple of DIY threads that mention them, too -- and I at one point considered cannibalizing the components from my 212 to make 2x112 cabs), and there are enough design considerations remaining beyond driver selection that a creative and aware builder can tweak to "add value", as you put it.

Still, that situation's not directly analogous to this, and the parties aren't related in the same way or operating as closely in the same market. You've got a better handle than any of us here on what's going on and what you're comfortable doing. Whatever you build, with or without that particular driver, I'm sure it'll be good and I'm sure it will be uniquely yours.

Cheers,
Mark

 

[steubig]

hathor 1203!

 

[nostatic]

Cabpalooza 2 (or 3?) happened this evening. Steuart came by with some of his stuff and we went through various combinations. The toys:

Fodera YYD PJ4, franken PJ fretless, Monarch 5 (E-C), AJ style 6-strings (fretted and fretless) and a Rob Allen Deep 4
Monique/Minnie, Puma 500, MB Fusion
Baer ML112, Hathor 1203 (x2), TC112-4

I'll let Steuart chime in with his thoughts. Short story is the 1203 is a winner. Longer story...

Sonically the cabs are voiced from aggressive mids (Baer on the left) to smooth (TC112-4 on the right). The 1203 sits in the middle, literally and sonically. You can hear the genetic connection between the 1203 and TC112, and the roll-off and smoothing switches on the 1203 can get it closer to the TC112 feel. As I tend to favor a fairly mid-forward and articulate tone (as evidenced by me playing the Baer for a couple years), I preferred the 1203 wide open, but the switches provided some nice color changes. I wasn't crazy about the sound with the port plugged though - was more open and spoke better (to me) with the port open.

I think the ML112 extended a bit lower than the 1203, but the Hathor had more meat in the low-mids. I am really sensitive to wooly low mids and have gotten rid of cabs that leaned that way. The 1203 gets it just right though. Nice heft to the notes but I never felt like there was any wool or lack or articulation. The 1203 isn't as aggressive as the ML112 in the mids and that can be a good or bad thing depending on what you're looking for. To me the slap tone with the 1203 was better than the ML112. Steuart preferred some of the chordal stuff with my Monarch 5 (E-C) on the Baer as it was really crisp/clear in the mids.

The TC112 is a much more "polite" cab. Steuart calls it "musical." . It goes lower than the 1203, has a bit thicker low-mids than either the 1203 or the ML112, and is very even and smooth through the mids. The 1203 has a bit more bite up high, and the Baer has a lot more edge in the upper mids. One interesting moment was when I cranked the gain on the GK MB Fusion and got it to overdrive. The 1203 sounded spectacular with that tone. I switched to the TC112 and didn't dig it nearly as much.

So my take is that the cab is pretty much exactly as Duke designed and described it. I have 4 gigs over the next few days in 4 different venues (1 outdoor) and I'm going to just take a single 1203 and see how it fairs. My hunch is that it will carry all of them. Right now the 1203 is totally looking like a keeper. Perfect size and weight (REALLY portable). The tone is in-between the Baer and TC112, so Goldilocks would dig it. One other factor is that the 1203 takes EQ really well. I was able to dial in a tone that is pretty close to the Baer by adding some mids either at the bass or the amp. Much harder to EQ the mids out of the ML112 - that cab sounds the way it sounds, and is much more towards the Geddy Lee tone camp. Now my question for larger gigs is 1203 + ML112, 1203 x2, or 1203 + TC112-8.

 

[Marial]

Thanks for the write-up! Once again my belief that the TC212 is the perfect cab for me sounds well-founded. Your description of the TC112's sound is pretty much exactly what I go for, so I am really looking forward to the arrival of my 212.

As to your final question, if you dig the sound of the 1203 so much, I'd go 1203 x 2, unless one of your gigs calls for an edgier tone, in which case I'd go 1203 + ML112.

 

[Passinwind]

Thanks for the write-up! Once again my belief that the TC212 is the perfect cab for me sounds well-founded. Your description of the TC112's sound is pretty much exactly what I go for, so I am really looking forward to the arrival of my 212.

The TC212 I played through had a pretty different compression driver than my TC112-4, although the family vibe was still there for sure. Duke could tell you more about the details, but I really dug it. Nostatic's descriptions jibe well with my own impressions of all those cabs, and the TC112 works best for my thing for the most part too.

 

[SuperFunkyPete]

.... Now my question for larger gigs is 1203 + ML112, 1203 x2, or 1203 + TC112-8.

Very interested to hear the outcome to this. I await a TC112-8 and would love to know if the 1203 plays nicely with it. It would be cool to have different flavours of cab from Duke and to be able to mix them up a little.

 

[Mark Sacchetti]

I love my 1203s. It truly is a great compact cab that packs a wallop! Paired with the Demeter M800D it sounds killer!

 

[Marial]

Gah! It's a good thing I have a newborn to occupy just about every last bit of my spare time, otherwise the wait would be killing me.

 

[tombowlus]

Cabpalooza 2 (or 3?) happened this evening. Steuart came by with some of his stuff and we went through various combinations. The toys:

Fodera YYD PJ4, franken PJ fretless, Monarch 5 (E-C), AJ style 6-strings (fretted and fretless) and a Rob Allen Deep 4
Monique/Minnie, Puma 500, MB Fusion
Baer ML112, Hathor 1203 (x2), TC112-4

I'll let Steuart chime in with his thoughts. Short story is the 1203 is a winner. Longer story...

Sonically the cabs are voiced from aggressive mids (Baer on the left) to smooth (TC112-4 on the right). The 1203 sits in the middle, literally and sonically. You can hear the genetic connection between the 1203 and TC112, and the roll-off and smoothing switches on the 1203 can get it closer to the TC112 feel. As I tend to favor a fairly mid-forward and articulate tone (as evidenced by me playing the Baer for a couple years), I preferred the 1203 wide open, but the switches provided some nice color changes. I wasn't crazy about the sound with the port plugged though - was more open and spoke better (to me) with the port open.

I think the ML112 extended a bit lower than the 1203, but the Hathor had more meat in the low-mids. I am really sensitive to wooly low mids and have gotten rid of cabs that leaned that way. The 1203 gets it just right though. Nice heft to the notes but I never felt like there was any wool or lack or articulation. The 1203 isn't as aggressive as the ML112 in the mids and that can be a good or bad thing depending on what you're looking for. To me the slap tone with the 1203 was better than the ML112. Steuart preferred some of the chordal stuff with my Monarch 5 (E-C) on the Baer as it was really crisp/clear in the mids.

The TC112 is a much more "polite" cab. Steuart calls it "musical." . It goes lower than the 1203, has a bit thicker low-mids than either the 1203 or the ML112, and is very even and smooth through the mids. The 1203 has a bit more bite up high, and the Baer has a lot more edge in the upper mids. One interesting moment was when I cranked the gain on the GK MB Fusion and got it to overdrive. The 1203 sounded spectacular with that tone. I switched to the TC112 and didn't dig it nearly as much.

So my take is that the cab is pretty much exactly as Duke designed and described it. I have 4 gigs over the next few days in 4 different venues (1 outdoor) and I'm going to just take a single 1203 and see how it fairs. My hunch is that it will carry all of them. Right now the 1203 is totally looking like a keeper. Perfect size and weight (REALLY portable). The tone is in-between the Baer and TC112, so Goldilocks would dig it. One other factor is that the 1203 takes EQ really well. I was able to dial in a tone that is pretty close to the Baer by adding some mids either at the bass or the amp. Much harder to EQ the mids out of the ML112 - that cab sounds the way it sounds, and is much more towards the Geddy Lee tone camp. Now my question for larger gigs is 1203 + ML112, 1203 x2, or 1203 + TC112-8.

Great review! Your observations line up very closely with mine. The 1203 had my interest from the first note I played through it, and my appreciation has only grown, the more I play through it. A pair of 1203's is really something special.

 

[IntrepidCellist]

Any indication of how the 1203 fares with really heavy overdrive?

 

[tombowlus]

Any indication of how the 1203 fares with really heavy overdrive?

IME, both the 1203 and the 1855 rocked overdrive like a champ!

 

[Smallequestrian]

IME, both the 1203 and the 1855 rocked overdrive like a champ!

Yeah, I think the Hathor setup all around is great for drive effects.

 

[3rdcurve]

Very interested in trying the 1203. I tried the Baer ml112 which for me was a bit lean in the low mids and a bit forward in the high mids for my taste. I also had and lds 12/6 with the same Faital 6 and the 3012 LF. That one sounded very sweet with lots of lows and the mids seemed almost subdued. I am thinking the 1203 would be right in the sweet spot. I would imagine the smaller box would negate the lows a bit, but at 24 lbs who could complain?

 

[steubig]

i'll never live down calling the tc112 "musical" . . .

(but the 1203 is likewise in that ballpark.)

todd, as usual, quantifies things quite well.

the caveat on this longwinded bit that follows is that we did this over the course of about two hours, so you don't get the dialing it in thing you might do as you learn about a cab, and how you, your basses and your amps interact together over weeks/months. we generally favored the monique as the test amp. i prefer the puma for *my* sound, but the monique gives you a lot to work with

i've been playing through the tc112 (4ohm) for a while now, so i like that sound and am used to it. the 1203 def comes from that audio/design perspective—for me that's a good thing. the 1203 has more high-end sheen than the tc112. for me, i'd want to dial that back through eq or the switches on the back—or not. both cabs have very attractive sonic capabilities and usefulness (as does the baer)

as todd mentioned, it seems like you can get the 1203 closer to the baer sound through application of midrange from either the amp or onboard eq from an active bass. seemed harder to get the baer back towards the 1203. my guess is that each of these cabs could make you happy if you worked with it a little (cause i don't think anything is "perfect" for everything) . . . three shades of awesomeness.

the 1203 handles the low notes on a b string pretty well, imo. i know some guys have different needs in this regard, so it's ymmv. still it worked for me—i liked it better than the baer for the low notes as that cab's mid thing kind of obscures the lows for my taste. the tc112 wins for best b string in comparison to the 1203. but the 1203 *is* really impressive for the low notes.

also, i felt like you got a lot of string character/nuance out of the 1203. there was clarity without it being "ganky" (that's scientific talk). and that was with very dead strings on my basses and semi-dead strings on todd's basses.

i do some really percussive things on the strings and the 1203 was great for those.

for my ears, slap was better on the 1203—though it does have a little of that "studio" thing, if that turns you off. the baer's midrange thing was hard to deal with for me on this.

the baer's midrange thing means that the notes in close chords tend to mush together a little—which i like (i want to hear the beats and so forth). adding some mids to the eq when going into the 1203 helped this out and there also seemed to be more clarity overall. i like what the tc112 does on this a lot, so that's my benchmark.

harmonics were good across all three. the flavors were a little different, but they represented well (could get the 9ths on the c strings, etc.). the 1203 and tc112 won over the baer for how they decayed (hearing beats in the minor seconds, etc.)—at least for my taste. (this is one area where i'm not sure i like the monique, so it's hard for me to tell.)

the 1203 sounded more compressed and less open than the tc112.

of course, one of the hooks for the 1203 is the portability factor. in that regard, it's way better than the baer and better than the tc112. part of the reason some people were pestering duke about doing a cab like this is the metro-bility of the cab. it does this with flying colors and sounds really good in the process. i've taken the tc112 on trips through the l.a. metro (!) and while it's not impossible, smaller is almost always gonna be better in this situation.

one thing todd didn't mention is that this seems like it could be a very good cab for upright players. nice low end and the 3-inch speaker might be good to give presence to the string sound. might be worth a listen.

i have two tc112s. at some point i will have a 1203 (or two).

 

[nostatic]

Very interested to hear the outcome to this. I await a TC112-8 and would love to know if the 1203 plays nicely with it. It would be cool to have different flavours of cab from Duke and to be able to mix them up a little.

That is in the "future plans" bucket right now. I'll have a much better idea by late sunday as I've got 4 gigs with 3 different bands in 4 different venues over the next 4 days. Tonight is a small/cramped restaurant with piano trio + vox/perc. I've played this place a lot, and it is one of the rooms where I hesitate bringing the Baer due to size. I've done it a few times with the QSC K10 and that is nice and compact but typically leaves me a bit wanting. Friday night is a much bigger room with the same core trio but adding sax and a different vocalist. Space isn't an issue there, and mostly I'm interested to see how a single 1203 carries the room. My experience with smaller cabs is that sometimes I can hear them but I can't feel them (and if I can't, the audience can't). These are jazzy gigs so volume is low but I still want some authoritah in the low end. From my previous two rehearsals with a single 1203 (and one gig running both), the slightly fuller low-mids helps. Sunday morning is outdoors at a farmers market in mid-city with a different quartet (guitar/keys). I've done that with a single ML112 and it has worked fine, though outdoors with no FOH bass often ends up a bit thin. This is somewhat exacerbated with the Baers since they don't have a lot of low-mid push, and with no walls to reflect back, it doesn't fill in as much. That will be a challenge for the single 1203. Of course the cabs are small enough that I could easily bring both, but that isn't the point of testing. Sunday night is a different piano trio with vox at a room I've played a few times that can be boomy - hotel bar with really high ceilings.

I record all my gigs so I'll have some "out in the house" reference after the fact. I'm thinking that the switches on the 1203 could come in handy in dealing with certain rooms - for instance one of them has glass walls in half of it, and the hotel has hardwood floors to go with the high ceilings. It is nice to have options on the cab to revoice, as well as being able to use eq on the amp. I'll bring the port plug but that probably won't get a lot of use.