Avatar 212 - Am I expecting too much?

[agedhorse]

Since you like to be (and generally are) technically correct, it's not "out of phase" - it's out of POLARITY.

I used the term colloquially, I could have clarified as 180 degrees out of phase which is the same as a polarity reversal.

 

[Saetia]

From the sounds of several postings here, I would seem that I haven't given the GK 700RB it's due. Thought that it might be underpowered for what I was trying to do and that I would need to look at the 1001, but everyone keeps saying that it gives way more power than it's rated for. Maybe the 700RB needs to be in the running along with the MB800 and ToneHammer 500. I do like the "wallop" of the RB power section better than that of the MB....

It's not that they are over rated, more like they are honestly rated. The RB series definitely has a wallop factor though. They just sound huge IMO.

Benny

 

[DWBass]

I have a rack rig with a BBE BMax going into 2 GK Neo112's. No lack of volume. That band must be really loud! Do they downtune? Use low heavy chords? They could be just sucking away your frequency realm!

 

[Rickter]

I have a rack rig with a BBE BMax going into 2 GK Neo112's. No lack of volume. That band must be really loud! Do they downtune? Use low heavy chords? They could be just sucking away your frequency realm!

I think that the biggest contributor to the problem was that my speaker cab was out of phase. At the next meeting I will know for certain if that was the culprit. The band was pretty loud. Guitarist had two guitars, one in standard tuning, another in Drop D, both going through a Marshall DSL 100 and matching 4x12. No PA support. I believe that he plays at that volume to stay in keeping with the drummer whom is a bit of a heavy hitter.

 

[zeb_bass]

I think that the biggest contributor to the problem was that my speaker cab was out of phase. At the next meeting I will know for certain if that was the culprit. The band was pretty loud. Guitarist had two guitars, one in standard tuning, another in Drop D, both going through a Marshall DSL 100 and matching 4x12. No PA support. I believe that he plays at that volume to stay in keeping with the drummer whom is a bit of a heavy hitter.

+1 The Avatar Neo 212 should be plenty loud to be heard. I have one myself and driven by an Aguilar DB750 I cannot imagine any situation where the Avatar cannot hang. My ToneHammer 500 will run out of steam @ 8 Ohms before the Avatar Cab. It has a slight mid scoop and maybe is not the most sensitive cab but it punches pretty hard.

 

[Rickter]

+1 The Avatar Neo 212 should be plenty loud to be heard. I have one myself and driven by an Aguilar DB750 I cannot imagine any situation where the Avatar cannot hang. My ToneHammer 500 will run out of steam @ 8 Ohms before the Avatar Cab. It has a slight mid scoop and maybe is not the most sensitive cab but it punches pretty hard.

Thanks for the info about the use of the ToneHammer 500. Had been looking at getting one of those but the 8ohm wattage was of concern. Thanks for confirming my concerns were indeed valid. I bet that DB750 sounds amazing.

 

[zeb_bass]

Thanks for the info about the use of the ToneHammer 500. Had been looking at getting one of those but the 8ohm wattage was of concern. Thanks for confirming my concerns were indeed valid. I bet that DB750 sounds amazing.

Yes the DB750 is amazing pillowy sweetness and lots of power. A micro head will be a downgrade coming from your pre + pwramp set up. The power of a microhead into 8ohm is always of concern. I came from a markbass LMII and that head was very uninspiring soundwise and compressed and squishy like hell @ 8ohms. The tonehammer is a vast improvment but the clip light will come on and it tends to become more dirty than I'd like it to be. Maybe the Gk 800 Watter might work. However with the tone profile of the Avatar it might be too clean and modern. i don't know what kind of a sound you are after. I like the deep lows smooth mids and hyped /harsh highs of the Avatar but my heads kindof complement that tone profil by being mid meaty and smooth up top.

 

[Rickter]

Yes the DB750 is amazing pillowy sweetness and lots of power. A micro head will be a downgrade coming from your pre + pwramp set up. The power of a microhead into 8ohm is always of concern. I came from a markbass LMII and that head was very uninspiring soundwise and compressed and squishy like hell @ 8ohms. The tonehammer is a vast improvment but the clip light will come on and it tends to become more dirty than I'd like it to be. Maybe the Gk 800 Watter might work. However with the tone profile of the Avatar it might be too clean and modern. i don't know what kind of a sound you are after. I like the deep lows smooth mids and hyped /harsh highs of the Avatar but my heads kindof complement that tone profil by being mid meaty and smooth up top.

Thanks for the advice! As much as I liked the ToneHammer, it's looking like less and less of an option for me. Starting to really think that the GK MB800 is probably going to be my better bet. I want to like the Markbass stuff, but I just can't ever seem to sound like myself playing through them. Can't ever get to a tone that I'm happy with.

 

[Gizmot]

I used the term colloquially, I could have clarified as 180 degrees out of phase which is the same as a polarity reversal.

No problem whatsoever!

 

[Rickter]

I want to thank everyone that has replied to this thread so far. We've gotten a bit afield from the original post questions, but thank you all for the advice.

 

[agedhorse]

I want to thank everyone that has replied to this thread so far. We've gotten a bit afield from the original post questions, but thank you all for the advice.

Well, how did it sound with the proper wiring?

 

[B-string]

8 ohm load generally moves less actual air than a 4 ohm load. With bass there are two things. 1) speakers need to move air. 2) bass frequencies are typically harder to hear up close. So try standing on the other side of the room from all of the highs from the drums and try running them parallel and running at 4 ohms.

"Generally" lower impedance speakers have lower sensitivity, they produce less sound per watt of input power. This means they "move less air" than the higher impedance speakers with the same input power (wattage in).

Example: From Eminence's web site
LEGEND BP102-4 (4 ohm) 90.5 db

LEGEND BP102 (8 ohm) 91.8 db

LEGEND BP102-16 (16 ohm) 96.4 db

 

[agedhorse]

"Generally" lower impedance speakers have lower sensitivity, they produce less sound per watt of input power. This means they "move less air" than the higher impedance speakers with the same input power (wattage in).

Example: From Eminence's web site
LEGEND BP102-4 (4 ohm) 90.5 db

LEGEND BP102 (8 ohm) 91.8 db

LEGEND BP102-16 (16 ohm) 96.4 db

Note that for these LARGE differences, there must be other significant factors coming into play other than just the nominal impedance. These can not be otherwise (close to) identical speakers.

While there are differences between drivers with different impedances, often due to the resistive losses of the wire outside the gap, there's no way there can be that much difference between the 8 ohm and 16 ohm version. Are you sure that's a BP-102???

 

[Rickter]

Well, how did it sound with the proper wiring?

Sounds more full. Stronger, for lack of a better term. Even at just room practice volume level it is rattling the windows, light fixtures and duct work.
Looking forward to taking it back to the next practice session to see how well it cuts through the din now that the wiring has been corrected.

 

[Downunderwonder]

A couple of points that weren't addressed.

Sound waves are fully developed the instant they get created. Distance effects are the result of boundary reflections and the dispersion characteristics of the drivers.

Loudness potential is most easily roughed out to speaker area × xmax, given enough power. Impedance doesn't really matter on its own when you have a giant amp. You just turn it up until the speakers fart out.

 

[ThisBass]

The BP102 16 Ohm version seems to be a different animal
Higher Fs, less moving mass, stronger Bl

 

[ThisBass]

With ported cabs it's delicate to translate Xmax drectly into moved air by multply cone surface with Xmax.
The lower the cab tuning versus cab system impedance peak the more cone excursion is neccessary for steady SPL.
So lowish tuning can eat up plenty of Xmax while max average SPL is rather decreased this way.
It's possible to design cabs with drivers of 5mm Xmax for F3 55Hz and 350 watt power handling as well as design cabs with drivers of 10mm Xmax but F3 45Hz and also 350 watt power handling and same max SPL.

As usual, it all depends, there is no fee lunch
Xmax means nothing but Xmax, except that Xmax around 10mm let's valid assume it must be a typical low driver!

max acoustical power for
yellow: Xmax 9mm (12" low-driver)
white: Xmax 5mm (12" low/mid driver)

It's obvious that the larger Xmax translates into lower F3 point rather than plenty of more average SPL.

Xmax versus Xmax consideration would predict roughly +5dB more of SPL but that's not the case!

 

[Downunderwonder]

Try eq ing up the low end of the weiner xmax version to match and see how your average SpL works out over the full range before the weiner blows up.

 

[agedhorse]

Loudness potential is most easily roughed out to speaker area × xmax, given enough power. Impedance doesn't really matter on its own when you have a giant amp. You just turn it up until the speakers fart out.

This means nothing without broadband average sensitivity (over the bandwidth the of the intended application).

I can think of several drivers that have lower Xmax but significantly much higher sensitivity which translates into higher SPL (for the same percentage of power compression).

Or look at it this way... low efficiency (say 90dB/1W/1M), high Xmax driver with a power handling of 500 watts versus a 100dB/1W/1M higher efficiency lower Xmax driver with a power handling of say 200 watts, all specified over the same bandwidth. Which one do you think will get louder when powered at their maximum rated power?

 

[Downunderwonder]

What happened to considering broadly similar drivers?