- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,097
- 5
- 221,259
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
What happened to considering all of the important variables?
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Considering same 10" low-driver, Xmax 8.5mm
cab net volume within recommended range numbers provided by manufacturer
Note, the driver is often referenced by foum members as to provide better low-end and more max SPL than lots of 15" low/mid drivers
white: smallish chamber
yellow: large chamber
Maximum acoustic power
remarkable different maximum acoustic power at the lows while "moved air" volume calculated by cone-surface x Xmax remains steady cause it's the same driver.
The way you guys try paint it a kappa 12 would be as good as a delta12LFA in a bass cabinet. Model those. Roughly equal power handling, kappa huge sensitivity xmax well down, no free lunch.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,097
- 5
- 221,259
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Actually, the Kappa 12A is likely to be significantly better because of the combination of sensitivity, power handling, and mid voicing. It's a MUCH better choice if no midrange driver is used.
This idea may have already come up. Or maybe it didn't because its just not feasible. But have you considered rewiring the cab to essentially a stereo 2x12. Have an input for each speaker. Instead of running the Crown in bridged mode, run it in stereo. Most folks using a pair of 1x12 cabs report great results. My idea would allow you to go from running a single cab at 8 ohms to the equivalent of two 4 ohm cabs.
So what would you recommend?
Recently have been contemplating a move to a GK MB800 and either a pair of their 212s or their 412 cab.
A less expensive move would be to simply add another avatar 212 or 410. Even contemplating selling the current 212 and ordering an Avatar 412 Neo.
Hadn't really considered rewiring the cab as stereo. Thought about changing the cab wiring to 2ohm parallel and then duplicating that with a second cab, then running the Crown at 2ohm stereo into the individual cabs, but I dont know that all of the extra work would worth it in the end considering my ultimate goal of holding up better against that 412 being pushed by a 100 watt tube head.
It might not be a much work just to give it a try. I'm one to exhaust my free (or low cost) options before I throw $ at a problem. In the end you may need a second cab. But if cost and/or transport of a larger rig is an issue it may be worth a try.
I'm going to wait until the next practice before I make any decisions. After changing the wiring of the cabinet to proper series wiring the cabinet sounds much better and is much more prominent. Once I see how the cabinet now stands up against that Marshall 100 watt, I'll know better what to do.
I would use two 2x12s, probably. Or a Dually 2x15. Either of those are fairly portable. IMO trying to pump almost a kilowatt into a single 2x12 is kind of a futile exercise.
Fair enough. Can only do so much with the amount of speaker area being moved. 4 12s should be nice. Just a matter of deciding whether to simply add another 212 to what I already have or sell the cab and spring for a 412.
Do you have any experience with any of the 412 cabs on the market such as Avatar's 412. (Yeah, I know that it's a converted guitar cabinet that has been ported. Strangely enough, it's the exact same dimensions as the Schroeder 412LX)
Thanks for the advice and input.
Eh, it's just that power is only part of the equation when it comes to getting loud. There are drivers that will handle a lot of power, but generally if you want to be louder, it's more effective to combine more speaker area with high power. Especially if you vertically stack a pair of 2x12s, you'll probably get better results than just increasing the amount of power you're putting into a relatively small cab. The increased power will be split over more drivers, so each driver won't be working as hard, which will mean the rig can get louder before speakers reach their mechanical limits. Also, if you stack the 2x12s vertically, you'll have speakers closer to ear level, making it easier for you to hear your rig.
So, an update on the original issue after attending practice yesterday.
The Avatar 212 definitely sounded and performed better after fixing the wiring. Unfortunately the rig as a whole was still struggling to keep up with that 100 watt Marshall DSL/412 combination and the heavy hitting drummer. I could definitely be heard, moreso than before, but not as much as I'd like. Things definitely improved when the guitarist clicked the Marshall over to the 50 watt setting, as we balanced out and I was much more forward in the overall mix, but the drummer was drowning us both out at that point. Bear in mind that we have no PA support (something I am very seriously advocating for at this point) and I think that having said PA support would help immensely.
So it is looking like I am going to need to do 1 of 2 things, possibly both. I need to investigate the Crown 402 amp, as it has never felt like it has had the expected amount of "push" that its wattage rating would suggest. So this puts me in the realm of investigating other power amps (preferably lighter weight ones) or swapping from the rack to a bass head unit (leaning GK MB800). Aside from this, the next most obvious option to fix the problem is to add another cabinet so that there is more speaker cone area moving.
Thank you all for your opinions and thoughts while I have been trying to resolve this. Cheers!
The Avatar 212 definitely sounded and performed better after fixing the wiring. Unfortunately the rig as a whole was still struggling to keep up with that 100 watt Marshall DSL/412 combination and the heavy hitting drummer. I could definitely be heard, moreso than before, but not as much as I'd like. Things definitely improved when the guitarist clicked the Marshall over to the 50 watt setting, as we balanced out and I was much more forward in the overall mix, but the drummer was drowning us both out at that point. Bear in mind that we have no PA support (something I am very seriously advocating for at this point) and I think that having said PA support would help immensely.
So it is looking like I am going to need to do 1 of 2 things, possibly both. I need to investigate the Crown 402 amp, as it has never felt like it has had the expected amount of "push" that its wattage rating would suggest. So this puts me in the realm of investigating other power amps (preferably lighter weight ones) or swapping from the rack to a bass head unit (leaning GK MB800). Aside from this, the next most obvious option to fix the problem is to add another cabinet so that there is more speaker cone area moving.
Thank you all for your opinions and thoughts while I have been trying to resolve this. Cheers!
It could be that your amp has lost its poke. Your B max thing should have the output to properly drive it.
But aside from either being duff I think it's far more likely a simple case of not enough cab for the job.
But aside from either being duff I think it's far more likely a simple case of not enough cab for the job.
I just remember reading somewhere that the Crown XLS line didn't have the "grunt" that their wattage should provide. Again, wattage isn't everything, but playing several bass amps rated at lower wattage through 212 cabs in the last several months has seemed louder and more impactful than my rig. Then again, I didn't have a 100 watt 412 blaring next to the cab when I tried them out, so it may be an apples to oranges comparison. I will likely try an additional cab first, then contemplate changing out my pre/pwr setup.
