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Avatar 3 way 15/6/tweet
- Thread starter sleepytime
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BurningSkies
CRAZY BALDHEAD
- Feb 20, 2005
- 27,956
- 20,348
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist: Dingwall Guitars
And, as you can tell from my post, I've never claimed to own one of these, but I've happily pushed people in the direction of Avatar when their situation suggested that this is the cab for them. Over all, I'm pretty happy that Dave stepped up and built this. AND you can see that I don't blame him in any way for having the layout that he does.
BUT...claiming that it doesn't make any difference when having no experience to that effect is questionable at best.
I've got a hefty number of gigs under my belt with a 15/6 and a 15/6+15 sub rig...so we're in the same place, minus the part where I'll take the science at face value thing.
We are ALMOST in the same place, the difference being I had nothing negative to say about the cab I've never played. We are both happy with our rigs, and at the end of the day, that is what really matters.
Passinwind
I know nothing.
- Dec 3, 2003
- 23,066
- 45,999
- Disclosures
- Designer/Toaster Tech @ Passinwind Electronics
Find a post where I ragged on other fearful incarnations
You can't say one thing is just as good as some other thing without hearing both things, allsimsayin'. Well, actually you did kind of imply that...hence the push back.
Can't find where I said the Avatar is as good, or better, or not as good as anything else....but also can't find anyone that has actually played this box and noticed even the slightest issue sonically with tweet+mid placement, or a deficiency in the cabinet design as relates to tone out the front, or the crossover points, or the other hypothetical knocks on this cab. I haven't passed ANY judgements on the cab designs I haven't played or had anything bad to say about them. 
Passinwind
I know nothing.
- Dec 3, 2003
- 23,066
- 45,999
- Disclosures
- Designer/Toaster Tech @ Passinwind Electronics
Can't find where I said the Avatar is as good, or better, or not as good as anything else....but also can't find anyone that has actually played this box and noticed even the slightest issue sonically with tweet+mid placement, or a deficiency in the cabinet design as relates to tone out the front, or the crossover points, or the other hypothetical knocks on this cab. I haven't passed ANY judgements on the cab designs I haven't played or had anything bad to say about them.
No worries, I've moved away from this format anyhow and have no interest beyond hoping to see greenboy stay on TB.
BurningSkies
CRAZY BALDHEAD
- Feb 20, 2005
- 27,956
- 20,348
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist: Dingwall Guitars
Find a post where I ragged on other fearful incarnations
I can't see anywhere that I've 'ragged' on this cab. In fact, if you go through this thread, you'll see that I've been overwhelmingly positive. Of course, as a realist, I can see the balance Avatar has to operate under. Pointing out that some improvement can be made isn't really being harsh to anyone.
Fair enough. I was talking about several posts back in which you called the cab design and mid and tweet placement into question..'the physics' same box as the 4x10, etc...but tone is certainly easy to mis read hear on the interwebs!!!
- Dec 18, 2000
- 13,201
- 340
- Disclosures
- greenboy designs: fEARful, bassic, dually, crazy88 etc
No matter where you go there's someone who always plays the Physics Versus Reality card. Which really isn't a physics issue per se - it's acoustic. But Acoustics ARE Reality.
Many don't realize that the acoustics issues more often than not are discovered by people who first listened and then wondered why this worked better than that, sounded better one way than an other, didn't have as many liabilities one way as it did the other. THEN after hearing these phenomenom, people began to figure out ways to measure whether the theoretical understanding of the time and the measurements supported each other.
A lot of the understanding of sound/acoustics has been developed to a high level of maturity well before we came along, and it's mainly that the gear used to measure things is what has had the greatest level of development; it's beginning to catch up with what can be heard, and what acoustics theory has long ascertained.
Me? I've just tried a lot of stuff over the decades - experimenting, wondering - while also at times delving into the study of acoustics and waveforms and all that stuff. I found that there are no downsides to doing things the right way, but there are often ways performance changes for the worse when you ignore the way sound works. I found by TRYING things that good placement pays off, and that theory and reality are largely the same.
Fortunately - as covered much earlier in the threads:
(1) electric bass and the gear it travels through is often not making much high frequency content anyway
(2) electric bass players often don't have very developed critical listening facilities beyond the range they are accustomed to focusing on.
(3) a lot of the performance degradation is not necessarily heard in one fixed position where EQ can be used to compensate for that particular spot in the soundfield. Instead, the lesser performance is demonstrated when many listening positions are compared. Ever have someone say something is an icepick in one place while others are saying it just sounds muddy? Myself, I want the best possible room fill, and that comes from having less variation from listening position to listening position.
How does this affect the player rather than just the audience though? Mainly, by having a higher level of consistency from venue to venue irrespective of cab position, player position, stage setup and shape and size etc. If you are one that can't hear the difference, fine. Maybe you really can't or maybe you just haven't had the chance to develop that yet. Nevertheless, there are plenty of people around that can hear this kind of thing, and consider even the more subtle improvements to add up to progress in this type of approach toward bass guitar sound amplification.
Many don't realize that the acoustics issues more often than not are discovered by people who first listened and then wondered why this worked better than that, sounded better one way than an other, didn't have as many liabilities one way as it did the other. THEN after hearing these phenomenom, people began to figure out ways to measure whether the theoretical understanding of the time and the measurements supported each other.
A lot of the understanding of sound/acoustics has been developed to a high level of maturity well before we came along, and it's mainly that the gear used to measure things is what has had the greatest level of development; it's beginning to catch up with what can be heard, and what acoustics theory has long ascertained.
Me? I've just tried a lot of stuff over the decades - experimenting, wondering - while also at times delving into the study of acoustics and waveforms and all that stuff. I found that there are no downsides to doing things the right way, but there are often ways performance changes for the worse when you ignore the way sound works. I found by TRYING things that good placement pays off, and that theory and reality are largely the same.
Fortunately - as covered much earlier in the threads:
(1) electric bass and the gear it travels through is often not making much high frequency content anyway
(2) electric bass players often don't have very developed critical listening facilities beyond the range they are accustomed to focusing on.
(3) a lot of the performance degradation is not necessarily heard in one fixed position where EQ can be used to compensate for that particular spot in the soundfield. Instead, the lesser performance is demonstrated when many listening positions are compared. Ever have someone say something is an icepick in one place while others are saying it just sounds muddy? Myself, I want the best possible room fill, and that comes from having less variation from listening position to listening position.
How does this affect the player rather than just the audience though? Mainly, by having a higher level of consistency from venue to venue irrespective of cab position, player position, stage setup and shape and size etc. If you are one that can't hear the difference, fine. Maybe you really can't or maybe you just haven't had the chance to develop that yet. Nevertheless, there are plenty of people around that can hear this kind of thing, and consider even the more subtle improvements to add up to progress in this type of approach toward bass guitar sound amplification.
I am a firm believer that anything good, equipment wise, is a result of many small advances over time - pointed out by Greenboy. That comes to a head with the top of the line 15/6 designs. I have not heard one, I cannot afford one, and I have no desire or talent to try and build one. I do want one though 
However, having the TB153 produced in a way that put it at a price point people like me can afford is fantastic, even with a few details that could be impoved upon. With that said, the Avatar is NOT an amature cab, it can easily hang with the pro equipment. Greenboy stated that there are people that can hear these differences, and that is surely true. I would tend to bet that a very very small percent of folks I play for, as well as many others, cannot, so in that respect I made a great investment. A great many of them will hear a dramatic difference in tone from common bass amplification of say 5 - 10 years ago, not to mention farther back. As mentioned, it is a great time to be a bassplayer 
However, having the TB153 produced in a way that put it at a price point people like me can afford is fantastic, even with a few details that could be impoved upon. With that said, the Avatar is NOT an amature cab, it can easily hang with the pro equipment. Greenboy stated that there are people that can hear these differences, and that is surely true. I would tend to bet that a very very small percent of folks I play for, as well as many others, cannot, so in that respect I made a great investment. A great many of them will hear a dramatic difference in tone from common bass amplification of say 5 - 10 years ago, not to mention farther back. As mentioned, it is a great time to be a bassplayer 
Everything in bass cab design is about trade-offs and Avatar is no exception, nor is a fEarful or any other cab. No cab can be all things to all players. Just isn't possible.
Perception is reality and when confronted with a choice of perfection versus affordability, it is easy to see where trade-offs aren't all that noticeable to the discerning wallet.
If you can't hear the difference why pay for it? Makes sense. If you can hear the difference but can't afford it then you just can't pay for it. Makes sense too.
We all play (or have played) through less than ideal equipment and rationalize that it is good enough, and in fact may very well be good enough. If we could perceive and afford better we would probably have it. If not, then the difference is a matter of opinion.
I'd like to build a fEarful. Can't afford it yet. I'd like the Avater in a 4 ohm. Can't afford it. But if I could afford either I'd build the fEarful and do it the right way...because I could. If I could afford the Avatar in a 4 ohm, I'd buy it and build a new lighter cab for it out of 1/2" ply and arrange the parts where they should be. Because I can.
If it don't matter, then it don't matter. If it does, it does.
Perception is reality and when confronted with a choice of perfection versus affordability, it is easy to see where trade-offs aren't all that noticeable to the discerning wallet.
If you can't hear the difference why pay for it? Makes sense. If you can hear the difference but can't afford it then you just can't pay for it. Makes sense too.
We all play (or have played) through less than ideal equipment and rationalize that it is good enough, and in fact may very well be good enough. If we could perceive and afford better we would probably have it. If not, then the difference is a matter of opinion.
I'd like to build a fEarful. Can't afford it yet. I'd like the Avater in a 4 ohm. Can't afford it. But if I could afford either I'd build the fEarful and do it the right way...because I could. If I could afford the Avatar in a 4 ohm, I'd buy it and build a new lighter cab for it out of 1/2" ply and arrange the parts where they should be. Because I can.
If it don't matter, then it don't matter. If it does, it does.
I currently us an Avatar 410 neo, but have been giving the TB153 some consideration. When I hear somewhat vague terms like "better", I wonder if that's in relation to the very subjective variable of tone. Maybe this new cab won't sound "better" to my ears than my current one?
However, the above post by Greenboy goes beyond the subjective tone considerations and relates how the 3-way design offers significant acoustic improvements in different rooms. The TB153 is the only design within my budget at the moment and it seems a very good step in a "better" direction for my sound.
Go to the Avtar website, and at the bottom of the TB-153 page you can hear some of my clips from a live gig without PA support. I don't know, you tell me if anything weird is going on...I think it just sounds like a killer cab crossed over in all the right places.
BurningSkies
CRAZY BALDHEAD
- Feb 20, 2005
- 27,956
- 20,348
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist: Dingwall Guitars
I really don't think anyone is telling you that there's anything wrong with your sound or your recordings.
And for sure it is. After all, even Dave at Avatar calls it his "TalkBass" cab. Ever wonder why?
I can pretty much guarantee that if I do that it will sound like a**.
Cheap computer speakers at work....
Of course this applies to pretty much any signal with bass.
I look forward to checking it out on my home computer and its subwoofer.
I really want to A/B these 2 fearful designs! Anyone in the Phoenix area want to hook up? You bring your fearful I bring my Avatar?
I really want to A/B these 2 fearful designs! Anyone in the Phoenix area want to hook up? You bring your fearful I bring my Avatar?
Cool! I hope you find someone to help out.
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