Avatar 3 way 15/6/tweet

[faulknersj]

Oh no Burning skies...sorry for the confusion, I was speaking to the 'design flaws' of the Avatar...if anyone can detect something I am missing as far as the way speaker placement, or cab design effects the sound. It's a sucky Flipcam recording but honestly, maybe someone can hear the ramifications of those design flaws on the recording and highlight them? I guess I am just not sure what to listen for?

 

[Passinwind]

Oh no Burning skies...sorry for the confusion, I was speaking to the 'design flaws' of the Avatar...if anyone can detect something I am missing as far as the way speaker placement, or cab design effects the sound. It's a sucky Flipcam recording but honestly, maybe someone can hear the ramifications of those design flaws on the recording and highlight them? I guess I am just not sure what to listen for?

You'd need to listen to your cab compared to the same cabinet but with those suggested mods done to it, not a fEarful design or an LDS one, if you want to do the scary science. You'd then do a double-blind test and just see if you can reliably tell which is which. Then you have other people do the same and compare the results. If they can tell and you can't, now you know that. If it goes some other way, same thing. Then you can decide if it matters to you or not.

 

[BurningSkies]

Oh no Burning skies...sorry for the confusion, I was speaking to the 'design flaws' of the Avatar...if anyone can detect something I am missing as far as the way speaker placement, or cab design effects the sound. It's a sucky Flipcam recording but honestly, maybe someone can hear the ramifications of those design flaws on the recording and highlight them? I guess I am just not sure what to listen for?

If you check Greenboy's post again, part of the equation is that if you have less than ideal speaker placement, as you move around in the room, it can cause 'trouble'. Meaning that you could get the 'icepick' he talks about or, places where you don't hear the highs, etc. So unless you're roving with the mic, or your testing equipment, it's hard to tell with a stationary camera/mic setup. So, what it comes down to, is that you may not hear anything amiss because of the low quality mic, or maybe you won't hear anything amiss because you happened to be in the right part of the room and not 'the wrong place' and maybe the wrong place is not so wrong or VERY wrong, or maybe with the Avatar placement there are less wrong places or fewer wrong places...but there's potential for there to be none or way fewer with some layout tweaks.

I've been fairly lucky to be in more than a couple gigging situations with my rig where I provided it as backline in no-bass-in-the-PA type situations (sometimes with 3 or more bands on the bill). Therefore I've had the opportunity to walk around a variety of rooms with a variety of players, different sounds, etc to hear how it sounds. I'm very happy with the fact that the bass tone (to my ear) does not change appreciably from different locations in the room.

Again, I think the Avatar TB-153 is a great cab. I haven't hesitated to say that to a number of people. For the price, you get more cab, more tone, more overall value than any cab I can think of. I can say this without having one...because the 3015LF/6/1 paradigm is set up to provide clean clear even tone across the board. The people who do have them AGREE with each other that it IS that good. Those of us who already use 'similar' cabinets know the benefits already.

 

[Blues Bass 2]

I'll chime in hear just for a different take on the tweeter placement . I built a 12/6/1 with the Alpha mid and the Dayton waveguide as close as possible to each other and with Dukes great highpass on it . That's as close to the optimal design goal as possible and it worked like advertised .

My point is that the horn even on the perfectly designed fEarfuls has very very little effect on the total sound of the cabinets . I could roll mine off quite a bit and hardly notice the difference at all with normal playing . As Greenboy said in his post above "(1) electric bass and the gear it travels through is often not making much high frequency content anyway "

Yes , the tweeter placement on the Avatar would be better if it was right next to the mid driver but 99% of players wouldn't notice it much unless most of their playing was all slapping and tapping in the upper registers and at least for me that would get old very quick .

 

[sleepytime]

I am really starting to regret not jumping on that introductory price...

 

[Gab124]

I'll chime in hear just for a different take on the tweeter placement . I built a 12/6/1 with the Alpha mid and the Dayton waveguide as close as possible to each other and with Dukes great highpass on it . That's as close to the optimal design goal as possible and it worked like advertised .

My point is that the horn even on the perfectly designed fEarfuls has very very little effect on the total sound of the cabinets . I could roll mine off quite a bit and hardly notice the difference at all with normal playing . As Greenboy said in his post above "(1) electric bass and the gear it travels through is often not making much high frequency content anyway "

Yes , the tweeter placement on the Avatar would be better if it was right next to the mid driver but 99% of players wouldn't notice it much unless most of their playing was all slapping and tapping in the upper registers and at least for me that would get old very quick .

That is weird for me, sometimes I turn the tweet off while practicing around the house and forget about it. Then, during practice I will immediately hear it missing and engage to my desired band context level. I don't slap or tap, just straight up rock and roll blues type stuff. For me it puts an air around the upper register that I greatly miss when not there. Now whether anyone else from a greater distance could hear that is another questions all together.

 

[BurningSkies]

That is weird for me, sometimes I turn the tweet off while practicing around the house and forget about it. Then, during practice I will immediately hear it missing and engage to my desired band context level. I don't slap or tap, just straight up rock and roll blues type stuff. For me it puts an air around the upper register that I greatly miss when not there. Now whether anyone else from a greater distance could hear that is another questions all together.

Yeah, that happens when you've got competing high frequency happening. When you're in a band, the guitars and cymbals give a lot of chime, in those situations they 'eat up' a lot of the hearable highs in your bass sound, and sometimes you need to add some back in. I know in a band setting I use more and they're less noticeable than when you're in a sparse or solo setting. This is one of the reasons why, when someone was 'shopping' the idea of using a couple fEarful subs, I suggested it's a bad idea.

 

[faulknersj]

Here is my new 15'/6'/1' users unite thread!!! Unite!!!!

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/15-6-1-bass-cab-appreciation-thread-747222/#post10536283

 

[johnnybass01]

Just curious , does Avatar have any intention of building a TB123 ???? I seams like after they did the TB153 this would be a natural next step..

 

[Blues Bass 2]

I know what you are saying about about the air around the highs , I just about have to have a horn or tweeter too . With these designs with the crossover point so high compared with most two way cabs about all you are getting is a little air around the upper notes from the horn though and I didn't hear a big difference when it was backed off quite a bit but still on . I just think with the mid doing so much of the highs the tweeter is a much smaller part of the overall sound of the cab and that its placement is a lot less noticable than on the two way cabs . As long as the player can hear some of what that horn is doing where he is standing in front of the cabinet it wouldn't make a big difference whether it's right next to the mid or to the other side . I do think the mid and horn would combine better side by side but I just don't think it's a major thing with all these cabs .

That is weird for me, sometimes I turn the tweet off while practicing around the house and forget about it. Then, during practice I will immediately hear it missing and engage to my desired band context level. I don't slap or tap, just straight up rock and roll blues type stuff. For me it puts an air around the upper register that I greatly miss when not there. Now whether anyone else from a greater distance could hear that is another questions all together.

 

[Gab124]

Yes, these horns are noticeably less irritating than traditional 2 way designs, no doubt.

I know what you are saying about about the air around the highs , I just about have to have a horn or tweeter too . With these designs with the crossover point so high compared with most two way cabs about all you are getting is a little air around the upper notes from the horn though and I didn't hear a big difference when it was backed off quite a bit but still on . I just think with the mid doing so much of the highs the tweeter is a much smaller part of the overall sound of the cab and that its placement is a lot less noticable than on the two way cabs . As long as the player can hear some of what that horn is doing where he is standing in front of the cabinet it wouldn't make a big difference whether it's right next to the mid or to the other side . I do think the mid and horn would combine better side by side but I just don't think it's a major thing with all these cabs .

 

[BigGuns]

I know what you are saying about about the air around the highs , I just about have to have a horn or tweeter too . With these designs with the crossover point so high compared with most two way cabs about all you are getting is a little air around the upper notes from the horn though and I didn't hear a big difference when it was backed off quite a bit but still on . I just think with the mid doing so much of the highs the tweeter is a much smaller part of the overall sound of the cab and that its placement is a lot less noticable than on the two way cabs . As long as the player can hear some of what that horn is doing where he is standing in front of the cabinet it wouldn't make a big difference whether it's right next to the mid or to the other side . I do think the mid and horn would combine better side by side but I just don't think it's a major thing with all these cabs .

ya know, based on pics of the TB153 it seems like the baffle might even have enough room where you could cut a new hole, move the tweeter over and fill in the old hole.

 

[rpsands]

The fEarful has about double the power handling in the mids due to the fixed lpad in the xover. Something to keep in mind.

 

[Calaverasgrande]

There's been a bunch of smacktalk from guys about this issue. The 3015LF based two and three way cabs are plenty efficient...people run into confusion because they mistake 'you can throw a lot of power at this cab' as 'you need a lot of power for this cab'.

There are plenty of guys running low wattage amps with these and finding that they're still loud and great. Just not AS loud as it would be with a 1kw amp. I found when I was running my single 15/6 (8ohm) at 300-ish watts, I wasn't any quieter than I had been with a 4x10 or my 15+1212 rig.

My apprehension comes from my experience with 3 way PA cabs vs 2 way PA cabs. It seems that a passive crossover will dissipate some of your power, so it should decrease the efficiency of the cabinet vs a simple no crossover design. With cabs that have multiple crossover points, it always seems to me that you have to pour on more power to get equivalent volume. There is also that I cant reconcile the idea that a single 15 (even if it has a lot of displacement) can be as loud as a 2x12 or 4x10 for equivalent power input. I suppose I will have to get around to buying one of these or building a fEaRfUl someday to settle this.
Unfortunately there are all kinds of pretty basses and such that keep sweet talking me out of my money, he types from his 3 month old Macbook Pro.

 

[Chef]

How would you have a multi driver cab, with dedicated drivers for bass, mid-range, and treble without a crossover?

 

[BurningSkies]

My apprehension comes from my experience with 3 way PA cabs vs 2 way PA cabs. It seems that a passive crossover will dissipate some of your power, so it should decrease the efficiency of the cabinet vs a simple no crossover design. With cabs that have multiple crossover points, it always seems to me that you have to pour on more power to get equivalent volume. There is also that I cant reconcile the idea that a single 15 can be as loud as a 2x12 or 4x10 for equivalent power input. I suppose I will have to get around to buying one of these or building a fEaRfUl someday to settle this.


with multiple low frequency drivers.

Whelp, at this point there's a vast conglomerate of anecdotal evidence in the form of countless TB testimonials from fEarful, nEarful and now TB153 owners. The CBG crossover designs have minimal component count and the capacitor/coil networks don't seem to dissipate appreciable heat, which would suggest that they're not sucking too much power.

 

[DavidLopezJr]

I emailed Dave earlier in the year about a 12/6/1.

"HI thanks...we may get into something like that this year...never know...just keep checking out website....THANKS and have a great new year...dave
Regards,
Dave"

Just curious , does Avatar have any intention of building a TB123 ???? I seams like after they did the TB153 this would be a natural next step..

 

[Calaverasgrande]

How would you have a multi driver cab, with dedicated drivers for bass, mid-range, and treble without a crossover?

Well I was talking about the old 4x10 vs 15/6/1 comparison.
But in PA terms a 3 way with an active crossover feeding dedicated power amps is always better than a single power amp feeding a 3 way with a passive crossover. If you had a 300 watt, 100 watt and 50 watt for the active crossover rig vs a 450 watt passive rig, I am confident the active crossover would smoke the passive version. Both in terms of spl and sound quality.

Of course in bass terms I wouldn't want to gig with anything that involved that many cables!

 

[Calaverasgrande]

Whelp, at this point there's a vast conglomerate of anecdotal evidence in the form of countless TB testimonials from fEarful, nEarful and now TB153 owners. The CBG crossover designs have minimal component count and the capacitor/coil networks don't seem to dissipate appreciable heat, which would suggest that they're not sucking too much power.

I'm kinda skeptical of "anecdotal evidence". As much as we may try to be objective we often love whatever we have because it smells new and we spent 2 weeks pay on it. I'm as guilty of this as anyone!
Shoot if I dont think everyone should be playing Musicman basses through EHX pedals into Mesa amps!

 

[faulknersj]

Well, 3 months and 60+ gigs in, I still think the TB-153 is the Bees Knees!