Baer Amplification Megathread!

[Anthbass]

I've had my ML112 for a few weeks now, and have been able to put about 15 hours of playing time through it (I know, I know, I'm busy). I'm very pleased with it, and am not missing a tweeter at all. I agree regarding having a mid driver sans tweet for a fretless: my Clement sings through this cabinet. Only problem is I haven't played it much over the past year and need to woodshed a bit.

I had hoped to put up a clip for the further edification of those interested in Roger's offerings, but I haven't a video camera. I attempted a recording with my laptop but low notes were very compressed or non-existent, so not very representative.

I know that sound perception is very subjective and highly personal; that said, I think notes lower than E sound amazing through the ML112. Not amazing as in overpowering, but amazing as in rich, detailed, and clear. I have typically been unimpressed with low B reproduction in the gear I've owned, but this little cabinet is very impressive here. I'm not in need of another, but that doesn't keep me from wanting one. I think two of them, coupled to your favourite sturdy amplifier, would be something to contend with. Still waiting on MysticMichael to comment in this regard, but he is likely too busy playing them to bother dropping by

 

[PDGood]

The description sounds nice. Where can it be heard in person?

Descriptions are helpful, videos are great, but for some of us a $600-$700 cabinet is a big investment and needs to be heard in person where it can be compared to other cabinets. Everyone's ears (and needs) are a little different.

 

[rpsands]

Attenuators on mid drivers are a bad, bad idea, for lots of reasons already covered. Using EQ was the right decision.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Attenuators on mid drivers are a bad, bad idea, for lots of reasons already covered. Using EQ was the right decision.

+1. This is the reason why amps have EQ in the first place.

 

[R Baer]

I am a tweeter guy.. and I still kinda missed that top end clarity... and I could also see myself wanting to control that mid driver on certain gigs too...

If I had my way, I'd add a tweeter to this cab and put two attenuators on the back. That way I'd have full control...

The whole intent of the ML Series (mid loaded) was to offer players who don't care for horns and alternative to simply turning off their horns. The mid we are using was the most "tweeter like" of the mids we tried. So while it doesn't have the top end sparkle of a horn, it does have a better reach than the average mid diver. This seemed like a good compromise for a cab such as a 112, where players are looking for a small portable cab capable of handling a variety of styles. Personally, I think that while the mid driver slap tone isn't as crisp, it does seem to have a certain "meatiness" to the sound that you just don't get from a tweeter.

Since horns and tweeters have a much higher SPL than your average woofer, an attenuator is a necessary evil to balance things out. As a result, a lot of players have come to think of that L-pad as more of a top end volume control. We take a slightly different approach, in that we try to find drivers that are matched close enough, so that the cab in inherently more balanced to begin with. This lets you do the more precise tone sculpting with your amps EQ section, rather than simply boosting the volume of everything about the crossover point. Also, keep in mind that this is already an expensive cabinet to build by the very nature of its design. Things like a high quality neo mid driver in its own enclosure, full two way crossover, extensive bracing and US manufacturing, add a lot to the cost. Adding a tweeter and two attenuators would make this one very expensive little cab indeed.

We do plan on having a much bigger cab line up as soon as we are able to do so, and a three way cab certainly seems like a possibility.

 

[Rock-Bassman]

Man these little guys seem right up my alley! How much are they going for? I looked on the site but it says the price is coming soon or something to that extent

 

[Jazzdogg]

<SNIP>
I'll be using this cab again today at church and Tuesday on a jazz gig where I'm doubling... I'm excited to hear this thing with upright. <SNIP>

I'm eager to read what you have to say about using this cab with DB.

 

[R Baer]

The description sounds nice. Where can it be heard in person?

Descriptions are helpful, videos are great, but for some of us a $600-$700 cabinet is a big investment and needs to be heard in person where it can be compared to other cabinets. Everyone's ears (and needs) are a little different.

Ah, the pitfall of being direct only. Having a network of dealers does make the cabs accessible to more players, but at the expensive of considerably higher prices for the gear. If you think the cab sounds like a good match for your needs, we do offer a 10 day return policy which gives you the chance to try the cabs out firsthand. We also allow you to transfer the full warranty for the first 90 days, which helps with the resale value should you decide to move the cab after the honeymoon is over.

Man these little guys seem right up my alley! How much are they going for? I looked on the site but it says the price is coming soon or something to that extent

I think you are looking at the ML212 page, which has not been released yet. Make sure you are clicking on the ML112 page. The pricing is listed there.

 

[bassclef04]

I'm looking forward to the ML212!

 

[TonyP-]

I am a tweeter guy.. and I still kinda missed that top end clarity...

I was able to tame the mid driver by using the VLE knob on the LMK. So it was cool, but different...

Hi triplelutz

I'm also a tweeter guy and will do my share simi aggressive playing up high where I want to hear a touch of sizzle.

With all do respect (and I mean that %100)
I felt like the was more then enough top end of the ML112.
We all hear things differently and have different takes on "sound/tone" I don't know everyones feeling when we had folks demoing it, but lack of highs is nothing that I heard.

I will admit that the VLE on the MBII with the ML112 was a killer combo. I felt like I was able to get the ultimate Tommy Shannon tone using the VLE up about half way with my buddies rosewood J.

 

[R Baer]

Hi triplelutz

I'm also a tweeter guy and will do my share simi aggressive playing up high where I want to hear a touch of sizzle.

With all do respect (and I mean that %100)
I felt like the was more then enough top end of the ML112.
We all hear things differently and have different takes on "sound/tone" I don't know everyones feeling when we had folks demoing it, but lack of highs is nothing that I heard.

I will admit that the VLE on the MBII with the ML112 was a killer combo. I felt like I was able to get the ultimate Tommy Shannon tone using the VLE up about half way with my buddies rosewood J.

I think what Dan's referring to, is not a lack of treble, but frequencies even higher up than that. It's like being in a studio and having the engineer add a touch of 12k for a little "air". The mid diver alone isn't capable of reaching that high, so yes, there is a little "sheen" missing that can't be achieved without a tweeter. One of the reasons I'm not a huge tweeter fan is that these frequencies are also competing with the sizzle from the drummer's cymbals, and in a live setting, I prefer to let them have that space. And while there is some sheen to be had in those upper regions, you are also likely to be amplifying any inherent noise from the bass and amplifier as well.

I agree with Dan, that a mid loaded cab does take a little bit of time for your ear to adjust to how your top end now sits in the mix. Once you get used to dialing that in treble with your amp however, I think what a lot of players find is that the ML112 delivers a little more "muscular" top end than you typical get from a tweeter. Harmonics also have a different way of jumping out that can be quite cool.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

And the MOST annoying thing is BAD highs. Which is what I'm used to hearing in most bass cabs. I am a big fan of the "air" that you get from boosting above 10k. With a good tweeter there is just a sense of your sound "breathing". I had an Eastern Accoustics 3 way years ago. !5" plus an Audax pro sound 6 1/2 and a RCF fabric dome tweeter. That was great mids and highs. Too bad that it likely suffered from bad crossover design because the 15 sounded restricted.
However, if it's not a really good tweeter (or bad xover)the upper range can sound like nails on a chalkboard. In which case a 6 1/2 sounds much better alone. I wish there were some good fabric dome pro sound tweets out there.
I did a live recording with Patricia Barber. Tight stage jazz club. They were using a $5k tube vocal mic. Just wouldn't work because of the bleed. Finally in desperation the engineer tried a SM58. Used a mic pre I think was called Night Air or something like that. Pricey. It had a gentle EQ rise above 10k into the stratosphere. The SM58 sounded astounding. And the CD won a Stereophile mag award for sound. It really was the eq above 10k that did it.
Oh, and I used to biamp with the Audax 6 1/2 for years. Separate tiny cab for the 6 1/2 elevated to about 30". Sounded great. !5" on the floor. Thump and articulation. I'm just too old to haul around that much crap these days!

 

[Derek Kiernan]

I think the language of air/sheen is important when talking about 10+ kHz. I've seen players mention how they're going to be missing "sparkle" if they're not getting 15 kHz, which is really down near 4 kHz, an area these mid-drivers will comfortably reproduce (even if there's less dispersion than an octave down). Sweet highs at 6 kHz are also produced by many of these mid-driver designs but wouldn't be at all with large conventional woofers, especially those that have large resonances low in the upper midrange. If one wants the air you hear out of a good acoustic instrument at 10 kHz, a tweeter is a necessity, but those with passive pickups in electric basses might not have so much to gain. The mid-driver without a tweeter is perhaps preferable for a great number of electric players.

 

[PDGood]

All this talk of sheen and breathing is very nice, but in my experience the treble frequencies disappear in the mix with volume. The louder the band, the more they fade and the more you need in order to maintain clear note separation. The good news is, I don't play at crazy volume any more (ahhh the younger days), but the effect continues to a lesser degree in most any setting with an electric guitarist and a strong drummer. (Wish I was in that jazz setting like some of you guys, but I can only speak of my experience in pop, funk, showbands, country and rock)

But the effect is not insurmountable - that's why they put eq on an amp and wattage in the power section. The question for me has always been - what is the quality of the upper mids and highs? I don't care how you get there - horns, tweeters or small speakers. Some cabs, some amps, and some basses accentuate different frequencies. The deal is finding a combination that works together.

 

[jnewmark]

I think the language of air/sheen is important when talking about 10+ kHz. I've seen players mention how they're going to be missing "sparkle" if they're not getting 15 kHz, which is really down near 4 kHz, an area these mid-drivers will comfortably reproduce (even if there's less dispersion than an octave down). Sweet highs at 6 kHz are also produced by many of these mid-driver designs but wouldn't be at all with large conventional woofers, especially those that have large resonances low in the upper midrange. If one wants the air you hear out of a good acoustic instrument at 10 kHz, a tweeter is a necessity, but those with passive pickups in electric basses might not have so much to gain. The mid-driver without a tweeter is perhaps preferable for a great number of electric players.

I've tried both, and, so far, a tweeter is a must for me, even if it just gives me that little bit of sizzle on top when slapping. Somehow, I never quite got that when only a mid was involved.

 

[KJung]

I've tried both, and, so far, a tweeter is a must for me, even if it just gives me that little bit of sizzle on top when slapping. Somehow, I never quite got that when only a mid was involved.

The Faital mid that Roger uses is WAY different than the mids used in most of the other 12/6 and 15/6 cabs. Much more sheen and sparkle up top, and a nice natural dip in that gank area in the upper mids.

I would never miss a tweeter with this particular execution.

Edit: The comments about extreme upper treble 'air' are accurate though. If you are, for example, a gospel type slapper with an MTD, you would miss that 12k+ air thing. So, +1 on that. I've found, as posted above, that pretty much is gone from the mix the first time the drummer hits the cymbals, and also requires you to change strings every couple of gigs, since that very highest of treble is the first thing you lose as the strings start to die. If you have a decent playback system, the top end nature comes through in the clip with the AE210 compared to the ML112.

 

[kringle77]

+10 Anything above about 6k in a mix gets buried. That faital mid is special. I had a pair and wish that I had kept them but, they weren't loud enough on their own against my other cabs. I really don't need anymore cabs but, I may have to get one of these.

 

[R Baer]

I've found, as posted above, that pretty much is gone from the mix the first time the drummer hits the cymbals, and also requires you to change strings every couple of gigs, since that very highest of treble is the first thing you lose as the strings start to die.

All this talk of sheen and breathing is very nice, but in my experience the treble frequencies disappear in the mix with volume... But the effect is not insurmountable - that's why they put eq on an amp and wattage in the power section.

Both good points. That upper sheen can be a great thing in the studio for capturing every little nuance of your playing, and revealing the amazing dynamic range of our instrument. Don't forget though, that during the recording/ mixing process, the engineer is going to spend hours/days tweaking that mix and getting everything sitting in just the right space, so that we can pick out all those details more easily.

Now, in a live setting, we are talking a whole other set of dynamics, where we are much more the engineer for our own instrument. We need to show up with our gear and find a tone that sits right in the mix, so our bandmates can not only feel the low end support, but also hear the note definition in our playing. For most of us, our biggest competition on stage comes from the drummer. First, we have to deal with that kick drum and how our low end either blends with, or separates from those frequencies. Personally, I like to sit just slightly above the kick. Low enough to pick up some punch from it, but high enough that my low end notes will gain a little more definition.

On the high end, we have those cymbals to compete with. With all but the most controlled drummers, that upper end sheen of your bass is going to disappear in here. Add in a room full of background noise, and as Ken points out, less than new strings, and that sheen is really struggling to be heard. Now, you can argue that a tweeter lets you gain some of that back and you would have a very valid point. But, in my experience, this can also touch off a bit of a high end "volume war". Many drummers will subconsciously, start hitting their cymbals harder to compensate for you being in their space and you in turn, will turn up the treble. I find this leads to an uncomfortable mix for the band and your audience members sitting close to stage, who quickly suffer ear fatigue. IMO, a better solution is to stay out of the upper stratosphere and duck slightly under the cymbal sizzle.

Keep in mind that for gigs with PA support, the sound coming out of our cabinets is mostly for the benefit of ourselves, our bandmates, and those lucky people in the first few rows that are usually in front of the house mains. For this, the mid drivers really excel. Plenty of high end detail and focus, with the ability to place your bass just right in the stage mix. For those gigs without PA support, I can pretty much guarantee that no one in the audience is going to notice that there are no frequencies above 10K coming out of your cabinet. You would be surprised how many players at NAMM commented on how much they liked the "tweeter" in our cabinets.

 

[B String]

I like this discussion... but again, the reality is that this cab (the ML112) does something unique and special. It's a bass cab and really has a great voice. Tweeter or not, this cab is a strong offering into the market and the clarity and growl that comes with the cab is pretty unbeatable!

I was playing with a loud band, and it didn't get lost once... my top end didn't get lost once, my tone was present, strong, defined, and had CHARACTER... The LMK is a GREAT match for this cab... so with cymbals, guitars, keys, horns, ... my bass spoke with authority and clarity all night.

This is pretty similar to what I've found. This cab seems to have one foot in the old school sound and one in the modern sound. One thing I really enjoy with this box is not having that hole between the top of the speaker and where the horn comes in. There's a lot of nuance there, especially with the upright bass. There's a smoothness going from the speaker to the mid driver. Also, I haven't missed a horn for slapping at all.
I haven't had the pleasure of using a Thunderchild, but from what I've read, there is a similar smoothness going from the speaker to the horn

The ML-112 just floored me when I tried it with my upright bass. This could actually be one of the better doubling boxes on the market. It kills at low volume and has more headroom than most every 2x10 box I've used.

 

[Mystic Michael]

All this talk of sheen and breathing is very nice, but in my experience the treble frequencies disappear in the mix with volume. The louder the band, the more they fade and the more you need in order to maintain clear note separation.

But the effect is not insurmountable - that's why they put eq on an amp and wattage in the power section.

That's also why they have microphones that are capable of picking up frequencies in the upper mids to ultra highs, along with PA systems that are capable of giving those frequencies a strong presence in the house mix - so that a bassist needn't rely upon his rig alone in order to be heard in those frequency ranges...

MM