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Baer Amplification Megathread!

#321
R Baer said:
This may get me in a little hot water, but I have to say that while I certainly believe in the engineering part of cabinet development, I don't take charts and graphs for gospel in how a cabinet performs in the real world. A big part of the design process is listening and making corrections until your ear says it's right. I was fortunate enough to have Hadrian Feraud try out a pair of ML112's along with the Valkyrie at a dinner and jazz club here in LA. As he was playing, I made a point of walking all around the club and really listening to the sound in various locations. Of course the mids drop off axis, but I was really pleased with just how well the sound stayed consistent going from center to the extreme sides of the club. The bass remained clear and focused and the mid definition stayed intact all over the club.

So yes, while the charts tell you that the mids are dropping off axis, experience with the cab tells me that it does deliver a very consistent tone across a pretty wide area of the stage. The same holds true for situations where the cab may only be a couple feet behind you. At that distance, the mid is way below ear level and very off axis, but it still manages to be heard quite well.
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The treble dropping off off-axis is what I am concerned about, in the statements about treble extension being usable to 6-8khz (which is, from the charts, not accurate).

So if you compared it in the same situation with a 6nd410 or a 605nd or something and could tell a serious difference in treble extension in the crowd, that'd be something.

I'm not saying it doesn't have an advantage over some other drivers on the top end, but it's not in producing usable 8khz in a live situation. It's in having usable off-axis up to 4khz instead of 3khz like a typical 6" midrange driver.

** Note, I don't really think that the lack of 8khz off-axis is going to be that huge of a deal in a live situation, but I think it's dangerous to set the expectation of hearing the upper end of treble . That's all I'm getting at here. Hope it's helpful. If you want extended high treble with wide dispersion, you need to be looking at a HF driver.
 
#322
R Baer said:
This may get me in a little hot water, but I have to say that while I certainly believe in the engineering part of cabinet development, I don't take charts and graphs for gospel in how a cabinet performs in the real world. A big part of the design process is listening and making corrections until your ear says it's right. I was fortunate enough to have Hadrian Feraud try out a pair of ML112's along with the Valkyrie at a dinner and jazz club here in LA. As he was playing, I made a point of walking all around the club and really listening to the sound in various locations. Of course the mids drop off axis, but I was really pleased with just how well the sound stayed consistent going from center to the extreme sides of the club. The bass remained clear and focused and the mid definition stayed intact all over the club.

So yes, while the charts tell you that the mids are dropping off axis, experience with the cab tells me that it does deliver a very consistent tone across a pretty wide area of the stage. The same holds true for situations where the cab may only be a couple feet behind you. At that distance, the mid is way below ear level and very off axis, but it still manages to be heard quite well.
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+1 Charts and specs tell part of the story - a very important part, in fact. But your ears are the ultimate measuring device, IME/IMHO. :cool:
 
#323
tombowlus said:
+1 Charts and specs tell part of the story - a very important part, in fact. But your ears are the ultimate measuring device, IME/IMHO. :cool:
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I think there's a lot to be said for calibrating your ears to measurements - not in the sense of what sounds good, but in the sense of being accurate.

A lot of times people will make claims like "the cab goes up super high all around the room" -- when what they're hearing is 3khz with wide dispersion. Lots of others interpret that as someone saying that the cab goes up to 10khz all around the room.

Gotta be careful not to try going the other direction (creating imaginary charts based on what you hear). :)
 
#324
rpsands said:
So if you compared it in the same situation with a 6nd410 or a 605nd or something and could tell a serious difference in treble extension in the crowd, that'd be something.

If you want extended high treble with wide dispersion, you need to be looking at a HF driver.
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RP, our mid inside a very small enclosure puts out more top end "brightness" that any other mid driver I have tried, hands down. So much so that many players trying the cab for the first time never even realize there isn't even a tweeter in it. Is it going to match the high end response and dispersion of a tweeter? Of course not, but then again, that's not what this cabinet is all about. If the dispersion pattern of the very top end of your signal is a deal breaker, then by all means look to a cab with a horn in it. I find the low end, mids and upper mids to be much more important to 95% of the players out there and I've yet to get one comment from a ML112 user that they aren't happy with the sound of the cab off axis.
 
#325
rpsands said:
** Note, I don't really think that the lack of 8khz off-axis is going to be that huge of a deal in a live situation, but I think it's dangerous to set the expectation of hearing the upper end of treble . That's all I'm getting at here. Hope it's helpful. If you want extended high treble with wide dispersion, you need to be looking at a HF driver.
Click to expand...

So far, from what I've read, the stated tonal profile of this cab isn't really on the higher frequencies. Nobody has made any great claims of upper treble response that I've noticed.

I think it's really geared towards players looking for a particular tonal profile that is more bottom and mid-focused. I think it offers a particular tonal profile in a format that a lot of players are looking for.

My limited impression from the discussion is that this cab would work very well for someone using a passive P or J bass rather than, say an active six-string MTD or similar.
 
#326
Cool man :) I'm not bagging on you guys by any stretch--really impressed with what you're doing. Like I said, the off-axis will likely extend a fair bit higher than other mid-loaded cabs! Just want the record straight on just how high that is.
 
#327
NWB said:
So far, from what I've read, the stated tonal profile of this cab isn't really on the higher frequencies. Nobody has made any great claims of upper treble response that I've noticed.

I think it's really geared towards players looking for a particular tonal profile that is more bottom and mid-focused. I think it offers a particular tonal profile in a format that a lot of players are looking for.

My limited impression from the discussion is that this cab would work very well for someone using a passive P or J bass rather than, say an active six-string MTD or similar.
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I think you haven't been following the discussion that much then! There's been a lot of mentions of how high the mid driver extends and so on.

Also, my feeling from looking at the cab design is that it'll extend high enough for 95% of the players out there, even those active 6-string MTD types. Guys are always shocked by just how much zing comes out of even my 6nd410-loaded 2-way cab--the treble singing range is often lower than people think.

It's very likely that this is a good compromise for those guys who might drop a low sensitivity soft-dome tweeter on top of a typical mid-driver cab instead of a 110db selenium paint peeler.
 
#328
I have a 212 horn cab loaded with 3012HO's and an 18 Sound Xd125 horn. I wonder if this cab would give me a similar tone in a smaller package ?
 
#329
rpsands said:
...It's very likely that this is a good compromise for those guys who might drop a low sensitivity soft-dome tweeter on top of a typical mid-driver cab instead of a 110db selenium paint peeler.
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I've done side by side comparisons next to an AccuGroove Tri112, and we both agreed that the ML112 sounded brighter.

jnewmark said:
I have a 212 horn cab loaded with 3012HO's and an 18 Sound Xd125 horn. I wonder if this cab would give me a similar tone in a smaller package ?
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Our custom woofer will have little better low end output and less overall mid sensitivity than the stock 3012HO drivers. The horn vs. mid driver is going to give you a different upper mid presence and feel. You will also have more high end above 7k with your horn setup. Probably in the same tonal ballpark, but a lot depends on how your crossover was designed and how much high end sizzle you like in your sound.
 
#330
Ken, this sounds like a great one cab solution for me. Being 8 ohms I can pair it with my most excellent for LDS 210 for a big room too. Question, how do you feel it would match up with the Sadowsky/ Thunderfunk set up? Do you still have your orange ash maple? I'd love to hear a clip.
 
#331
burk48237 said:
Ken, this sounds like a great one cab solution for me. Being 8 ohms I can pair it with my most excellent for LDS 210 for a big room too. Question, how do you feel it would match up with the Sadowsky/ Thunderfunk set up? Do you still have your orange ash maple? I'd love to hear a clip.
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Hey Steve,

It is voiced to work beautifully with the Thunderfunk, and the cab is also in a horizontal format, which means it is wide enough for a rack.

Not sure about combining those two very different cabs. It would of course physically work, but the voicing is so different that it might creat some tonal issues.

The Sadowsky was in St. Louis when I demo'd this cab, so didn't have a chance to do a clip prior to shipping the cab to its next destination.
 
#332
...and, I have managed to get my paws on a cab to demo for a few days.

My rig
Dingwall ABZ5 ==> Mesa M6 Carbine ==> Baer 112

First impressions:
Looks very nice. Not quite as large as I envisioned it based on the web shots, but not EA Wizzy 12 small. It is shockingly light. The handle placement had me wondering how cumbersome it would be, but it is a dream to lift. The balance point and handle placement are dead on for one handed lifting. This is a big deal for me since I'm coming back to playing after breaking my neck last year. The construction and finish are impressively nice and clean.

The sound is a radical departure from my existing Mesa PH212 and 115 cabs. I spoke with Roger about this, in more detail than I care to type about. Here are the finer points. So far I have only tested at living room volume, plus a little more. The mid-driver makes the passive electronics tone knob on my bass VERY influential on my sound. All the way up becomes very bright and cutting. It is almost too much on the bridge pickup, but makes the neck pickup very articulate. Turned down, the tone becomes dark, but never boomy and farty. Clearly, there is something powerful going on with the cross-over on the mid-driver. I had a friend play a bit, while I tweakd the tone and PU settings, and the variety is impressive, and the range is much wider than I was getting with my Mesas (on which, I turn the tweeter all the way down).

My friend noticed the low B string lacked some of the Dingwall "wow" factor he heard on the Mesa cabs. However, Roger has assured me that getting in a full band setting, the lack of boom will be beneficial to the mix. I have a sense he is right. He said a slight on-board electronics EQ bump in the bass would help (not an option on my passive bass)

Sitting down to jam with the stereo, showed a tease of how it sits in the mix, and the results were very nice. I felt bass pumping, without overpowering. Here is where the passive tone control on my bass became very powerful for dialing in the right amount of presence in the mix.

BTW, all my playing is finger picked, with no slap. My friend did some slap/pop runs and they sounded good, but it isn't my area of expertise.

Hoping for a full band jam this weekend.
 
#333
monsterthompson said:
The sound is a radical departure from my existing Mesa PH212 and 115 cabs... My friend noticed the low B string lacked some of the Dingwall "wow" factor he heard on the Mesa cabs.
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Adam,
This is to be expected somewhat when comparing a form factor such as the ML112 to something like the PH212/PH115, which are much larger and heavier cabinets and voiced for a really deep sounding low end. The ML112 is all about getting as much performance as possible out of a small, lightweight, easy to move cabinet. On a passive instrument, such as your Dingwall, your'e correct in that you will find a lot of really useful tones in there with just the manipulation the tone control and right hand placement.

Also, not sure how loud your "living room" volume is, but as a general rule of thumb, most small cabs benefit from a bit of bass boost at lower volumes, which can usually be tapered off as you increase in volume.
 
#334
R Baer said:
Adam,
This is to be expected somewhat when comparing a form factor such as the ML112 to something like the PH212/PH115, which are much larger and heavier cabinets and voiced for a really deep sounding low end. The ML112 is all about getting as much performance as possible out of a small, lightweight, easy to move cabinet. On a passive instrument, such as your Dingwall, your'e correct in that you will find a lot of really useful tones in there with just the manipulation the tone control and right hand placement.

Also, not sure how loud your "living room" volume is, but as a general rule of thumb, most small cabs benefit from a bit of bass boost at lower volumes, which can usually be tapered off as you increase in volume.
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Good point on the right hand placement. I have certainly noticed that already.

Agreed on the bass boost at low volumes with a taper down as the gain goes up.

I would love to hear two of these together, or the 212 when it is ready. I think it will be a gut-puncher on the low B. I think the PH cabs sound big that low, but I've found that region hard to tame in a live setting for a good mix spot. To be fair, I didn't have the Dingwall then (Warwick Thumb 5BO).

I'm super interested in jamming my wah and MXR Blowtorch in the signal chain. Based on the tone knob results, I think the wah (Dunlop Bass) is going to be rad. The Blowtorch is also such a wild beast with the mid-shift options, that I expect gnarly results.
 
#335
It is just silly how much this cab sits in the mix (still just jamming with the stereo), but still lets you know it is there. Some of the tones settings that sound "a bit off" when it is solo end up settling in the mix nicely. With my mesa cabs, I was starting to find pu/eq/tone settings I liked, and each setting was distinct with a "gap" between it and the next useable setting. This cab (and some credit to Dingwall, since this is a new bass too) seems to open up and blur the line between the settings I like. I find myself doing a fair amount of knob twisting to hear what things sound like, not because I have a hard time finding one I like, but because each option is quite good.
 
#339
Roger, the tip you gave about boosting the bass with the onboard electronics got me thinking. I have a Warwick $$ Corvette 4 string, with Chome flats. I almost forgot about it with the new Dingwall. I plugged that in this morning, and the tones are glorious. The active 2band EQ sounds great with a touch of trebble cut and bass boost. The bridge and neck pickups sound great in any/all combos (the tons that are available on the Warwick). It really has me thinking about pairing up this cab with a Mesa Walkabout head for a small, light rig. I think the 3 band parametric on that head with this cab would make for quite the deadly combo. I had been considering an Orange Terror Bass or Ashdown Little Bastard. However the extra EQ options on the Mesa might pull me in that direction, over the passive/limited EQ of the other two. I'm pretty well sold on this cab. The only thing left to do is get it up to playing volume with drums and guitar in the room. Well done sir.

PS - I'm kind of kicking myself for having sold my Thumb 5 now. The Vette through this head and cab combo is reminds me of why I went Warwick in the first place. Not that I'm unhappy with the Dingwall, but I do wonder how that Thumb would sound through this rig, with the actives and the Warwick growl. The amp EQ doesn't make up for the difference.

And one more thing . . . for now. Would it be correct to say the onboard passive tone knob is functioning as a "tweeter" contoller on the mid driver? I get the sense that the bass coming from the 12 stays pretty constant as the tone is rolled back, and the highs running through the 6 mid driver are coming down, giving the impression that the bass is coming up. Does that sound about right, given the crossover?
 
#340
monsterthompson said:
And one more thing . . . for now. Would it be correct to say the onboard passive tone knob is functioning as a "tweeter" contoller on the mid driver? I get the sense that the bass coming from the 12 stays pretty constant as the tone is rolled back, and the highs running through the 6 mid driver are coming down, giving the impression that the bass is coming up. Does that sound about right, given the crossover?
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Passive tone controls are basically simple high end roll off controls, so yes, rolling that off will reduce the high end coming from the mid driver and make the low end seem more present. That cab uses a full 2-way crossover, so your'e just hearing the 6" from the upper mids on up. On my Nordy, I tend to bump the bass up just slightly off the center detent and use the passive tone control, pick up blend and right hand placement for everything else.

By the way, I have a Mesa Walkabout and still consider it the best "micro" head out there, if you can work within it's power limitations. I've always been a fan of the Warwick growl and I can imagine a Walkabout/Ml112/Warwick combination sounding pretty spectacular.
 

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